Misaki vs Lilith

[Sliver Chocobo]

After reading storm of shadows I starting think about Misaki who seems very similar to Lilith possible better

So now I have decided to take a deeper look at both the mother of monsters and the mistress of the ten thunders

basic stats

both very similar stat line, although Lilith has +1 Wk, Cg and +1:masks Df, although misaki has +1Wp

Weapons

On the outside they look very similar but Lilith deal an extra damage on her weak and gains a on her damage, while Misaki's is magical, so she can deal full damage to spirits.

Combat Triggers Lilith has one bloody fate, requiring two :masks altough she one already, allowing her refresh her hand. Misaki has three cutpurse which needs a :masks to pull off, letting Misaki to make a pilfer action while difficult to do successfully I would say the theft of a soulstone is worth it.

Now on to decapitate one of instant kill abilities needs a :rams not if I prefer to try and deal as much damage as possible or go for decapate and drain my opponents hand of cards (Misaki can make up to four attacks in a turn and can kill many master this way with a lot of luck.) Last one Ten thunders strike gives Misaki a to damage for every :rams in her Cb, not as good Lilith who has a in her damage naturally, but Misaki can gain :+fate to her damage by using a soulstone, but a lot of luck is needed there, now Lilith has one more trick Whirling death, Lilith can take on more models at once than Misaki can

AP

lilith comes with Fast naturally, Misaki reckless and Melee expect, hard to say who comes out on top here Lilith has less AP but isn't restricted on how she uses it, Misaki might come with more AP but that expert means she can't walk and charge like Lilith can unless of cause she uses her reckless, which constant use of will drain her of all of those lovely Wd she has

Also as far as I know fast doesn't stack with reckless so you can't give her fast via the student of conflict and then have fast, reckless and then Melee expert

Defence

Lilith starts off with the advantage with an extra +1:masks to her Df and a trigger to give her +2Df against anyone who misses her with a melee attack as well as black blood to wiggle away at those she's in combat with. Misaki does have a still very impressive Df of 7 and bulletproof +2

hand size

Lilith come rush of magic, Misaki can again it through her totem and Lilith out does her with the use of Primodal magic where she can get Arcane reservoir

spells

Misaki needs a seven to pull off downburst and a :tombs to pull off her trigger, which if you had can swipe rate a model with it's friends followed that can be followed by two attacks with out having to resort to her reckless if you can pull off her trigger.

Lilith has few more spells, transposition with Bood mother can pull a Nephilim from back (swapping for one that has activated for one that hasn't) alluring which gives Lilith the advantage over masters like Misaki, earthquake can push Lilith forwards if casted through her totem and finally illusionary forest can give her or any other Nephilim cover

So in conclusion Misaki may have seemed to been better at a glance, but Lilith is much more reliable as give more surport to her crew than Misaki

[Sniddy]

You do know decapitate is autokill - and if the discard then you do dmg

It's not head shot or slit jug - it's die now or hurt now....unless blacks flipped of course

[dgraz]

You've left a few of Misaki's abilities out. Lilith can take on more opponents. Misaki specializes in one on one. Misaki's defense can be much better after using 'You're Mine'.

She also has Shadow which gives her some free movement.

Diving Charge.

Lilith is the tricky one in her crew....Misaki can have a tricky crew that can move her around...freeing up her AP for killing.

[Sliver Chocobo]

You do know decapitate is autokill - and if the discard then you do dmg

It's not head shot or slit jug - it's die now or hurt now....unless blacks flipped of course

Oh wow I did misread that didn't I, which does serously improve her weapon

You've left a few of Misaki's abilities out. Lilith can take on more opponents. Misaki specializes in one on one. Misaki's defense can be much better after using 'You're Mine'.

She also has Shadow which gives her some free movement.

Diving Charge.

Lilith is the tricky one in her crew....Misaki can have a tricky crew that can move her around...freeing up her AP for killing.

So diving attack vs Master of Malifaux, on the outset diving attack seems to better beacuse of Lilith lack of ranged abilities beyond transposition, which works considerably well since Lilith doesn't doesn't need to see the models she swapping around

Now onto shadow, interesting ability it has the possibly of making Misaki's mobility greater than Lilith, only if the target walks or charges, pushes don't count, then we have to count in for terrain difficult terrain would slow Misaki down while Lilith just doesn't care

Alluring vs your mine a (1) vs (0) normally I would side with (0) since it doesn't reduce the amount of attacks Misaki has and this one not only gives Misaki a to her Cb to get that decapate trigger, but also a to df when disenaging from Miaki so it's much harder to run away from, but it has a bit of a catch 22 here, to get the buff against a model with high Df you need to hit to so you can use your mine to hit model that you can't hit without your mine, Lilith on the other hand just needs an 8+, with rush of magic and possible arcane reservoir means it more easier to pull off. More can be said about these two Lilith effect effects all non-Neverborn enemy models with 3, so Lilith can easily brood mother somthing like a mature Nephilim, followed by alluring then charge a model, or whiling death on a group, then follow it up charging in with the mature who still benefits from the bonus, while Misaki is not only the only model that benefits from Your mine, but makes it harder for other friendly models to attack the target, altough it harder for other models to attack Misaki

Second conclusion

Misaki might be more focus on a single target and Lilith can take more at anyone time, Misaki prefers to be alone, while Lilith is more of a team player

[Kadeton]

Interesting analysis! I hadn't initially thought to compare the two, but it's interesting how similar their capabilities are.

Misaki prefers to be alone, while Lilith is more of a team player

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd go that far. Misaki definitely needs support when she goes in to a fight - if she's truly alone, she'll die. I'd say she's best when you engage as a group, and use her to assassinate the most dangerous opponent. Lilith just tries to spread her damage around a bit more... I don't think there's a model in the game that's as powerful at killing a single target as Misaki now, even Lady Justice is a little bit behind.

[FearLord]

Alluring vs your mine a (1) vs (0) normally I would side with (0) since it doesn't reduce the amount of attacks Misaki has and this one not only gives Misaki a to her Cb to get that decapate trigger, but also a to df when disenaging from Miaki so it's much harder to run away from, but it has a bit of a catch 22 here, to get the buff against a model with high Df you need to hit to so you can use your mine to hit model that you can't hit without your mine, Lilith on the other hand just needs an 8+, with rush of magic and possible arcane reservoir means it more easier to pull off. More can be said about these two Lilith effect effects all non-Neverborn enemy models with 3, so Lilith can easily brood mother somthing like a mature Nephilim, followed by alluring then charge a model, or whiling death on a group, then follow it up charging in with the mature who still benefits from the bonus, while Misaki is not only the only model that benefits from Your mine, but makes it harder for other friendly models to attack the target, altough it harder for other models to attack Misaki

You only need to have targeted a model with a strike to get to use 'You're Mine" on them - hitting with the strike isn't necessary.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

I don't think there's a model in the game that's as powerful at killing a single target as Misaki now, even Lady Justice is a little bit behind.

That much AP and the Decapitate trigger are a nasty combination - as stated above, Decapitate really has no down side - you still deal damage, so you either kill the model you're attacking or you drain their hand (or pool in the case of models with Use Soulstone) - the only problem with it is that I'm unlikely to ever get any use out of Ten Thunder's Strike - I probably would have preferred that she had the Ram built in (so could always use Ten Thunders Strike) and needed the crow for decapitate...

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ----------

Lilith is the tricky one in her crew....Misaki can have a tricky crew that can move her around...freeing up her AP for killing.

This is the important distinction in my opinion - a Lilith crew and a Misaki crew can do some similar things (block line of sight, swap models around, push things around) but Lilith has to spend her AP on tricks or killing, while her crew are good at killing. Misaki has a crew that can do the tricks for her, while she concentrates on killing things dead...

[Sliver Chocobo]

Interesting analysis! I hadn't initially thought to compare the two, but it's interesting how similar their capabilities are.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd go that far. Misaki definitely needs support when she goes in to a fight - if she's truly alone, she'll die. I'd say she's best when you engage as a group, and use her to assassinate the most dangerous opponent. Lilith just tries to spread her damage around a bit more... I don't think there's a model in the game that's as powerful at killing a single target as Misaki now, even Lady Justice is a little bit behind.

I would say that these two are the most similar of all of the Malifaux masters so far

I say Lilith is better team player as her abiltes not only allow her work with other models, while Misaki's abiltes only bennifet herself

You only need to have targeted a model with a strike to get to use 'You're Mine" on them - hitting with the strike isn't necessary.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

That much AP and the Decapitate trigger are a nasty combination - as stated above, Decapitate really has no down side - you still deal damage, so you either kill the model you're attacking or you drain their hand (or pool in the case of models with Use Soulstone) - the only problem with it is that I'm unlikely to ever get any use out of Ten Thunder's Strike - I probably would have preferred that she had the Ram built in (so could always use Ten Thunders Strike) and needed the crow for decapitate...

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ----------

This is the important distinction in my opinion - a Lilith crew and a Misaki crew can do some similar things (block line of sight, swap models around, push things around) but Lilith has to spend her AP on tricks or killing, while her crew are good at killing. Misaki has a crew that can do the tricks for her, while she concentrates on killing things dead...

I disagree on the change to Misaki Cb, but instead change ten thunders to :masks that way you can't regularly get more a a single on damage with out using a soulstone

Decapate is the only thing IMO that seperates Lilith from Misaki

Is she OP, no I'm not saying that

[Kadeton]

I would say that these two are the most similar of all of the Malifaux masters so far

In terms of capabilities on paper, almost certainly. In terms of the way they play? I don't think so, personally.

I say Lilith is better team player as her abiltes not only allow her work with other models, while Misaki's abiltes only bennifet herself

Ah. I would phrase that as "Lilith supports her team, while Misaki's team supports her."

Decapate is the only thing IMO that seperates Lilith from Misaki

Is she OP, no I'm not saying that

In what sense are you using "separates"? Do you mean that Misaki is better, or that Decapitate is the only thing that's different between them, or something else entirely? I think there's rather a lot to separate them, personally - their stats and abilities might be superficially similar, but they interact with their crew and the enemy crew in completely different ways in play.

[nilus]

You can really look at either in a bubble.

While Lilith has some synergy with her crew, Misaki has some amazing abilities that really put her ahead.

Her totems ability to have her reflip cards, Yamakizos ability to change reckless to fast, Torakage reposition tricks.

The bottom line is Lilith is still very cool but I doubt you can find a better master in the game who can say "I want XXX" dead and kill it like Misaki

[Sniddy]

The bottom line is Lilith is still very cool but I doubt you can find a better master in the game who can say "I want XXX" dead and kill it like Misaki

I see you haven't played Levi much...if you spend the stones then pretty much point at what you want to kill this turn

[dgraz]

but I doubt you can find a better master in the game who can say "I want XXX" dead and kill it like Misaki

I have to disagree. I am the master of killing XXX.

[Sliver Chocobo]

In terms of capabilities on paper, almost certainly. In terms of the way they play? I don't think so, personally.

Ah. I would phrase that as "Lilith supports her team, while Misaki's team supports her."

In what sense are you using "separates"? Do you mean that Misaki is better, or that Decapitate is the only thing that's different between them, or something else entirely? I think there's rather a lot to separate them, personally - their stats and abilities might be superficially similar, but they interact with their crew and the enemy crew in completely different ways in play.

Sorry last part of of that post was cut off, I was trying to that feel like Misaki is a slightly better master than Lilith, but only beacuse of decapate, although I wouldn't say that Misaki was OP or that Lilith was Underpowered

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

Also I still was personal preference to Lilith

[FearLord]

Something else to keep in mind about their ability to take on multiple models at once - Whirling Death is only really an advantage vs 3+ models in Lilith's melee range - vs 2, it would be more flexible and less card intensive to just attack twice with the same AP. There is also a negative impact if there are any friends in her melee range, as she is forced to attack them as well...

Vs 2 models, I think I'd rather have Misaki...

[Odin1981]

The fear I have with her is she is the only model with use ss and decapitate. Decap has only been on two previous minions (steamborg exec and guild executioner) with the zero after she strikes giving her paired you have a ss user with attack+ and decap.

Decap is a great trigger I have for a long time run it with dita. But decap on a ss user might be way too much. Time will tell but I worry about her. Especially considering that both of the previous models that have it our on the slow side. But Misaki with multiple ap, tokarage, as well as shadow is definatley not slow.

[nix]

The fear I have with her is she is the only model with use ss and decapitate. Decap has only been on two previous minions (steamborg exec and guild executioner) with the zero after she strikes giving her paired you have a ss user with attack+ and decap.

Decap is a great trigger I have for a long time run it with dita. But decap on a ss user might be way too much. Time will tell but I worry about her. Especially considering that both of the previous models that have it our on the slow side. But Misaki with multiple ap, tokarage, as well as shadow is definatley not slow.

Don't forget that LCB has Disembowel on his teeth, which is the same trigger as Decapitate (uses different suit's). The biggest different is LCB is CB6 while Misaki is CB7 and can become paired for her additional attacks. Misaki can also pull out 1 additional AP, although LCB can be dropped into combat to get 3AP of attacks.

Decapitate will be ugly, but I am not sure it will be too much on Misaki.

[FearLord]

The fear I have with her is she is the only model with use ss and decapitate. Decap has only been on two previous minions (steamborg exec and guild executioner) with the zero after she strikes giving her paired you have a ss user with attack+ and decap.

Decap is a great trigger I have for a long time run it with dita. But decap on a ss user might be way too much. Time will tell but I worry about her. Especially considering that both of the previous models that have it our on the slow side. But Misaki with multiple ap, tokarage, as well as shadow is definatley not slow.

Is it so bad to have a master that's deadly but fragile? I mean, she's Df 7, but there are lots of masters that are much harder to kill - sure, she's deadly, but she requires help to keep her alive...

[WaywardSun13]

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd go that far. Misaki definitely needs support when she goes in to a fight - if she's truly alone, she'll die. I'd say she's best when you engage as a group, and use her to assassinate the most dangerous opponent. Lilith just tries to spread her damage around a bit more... I don't think there's a model in the game that's as powerful at killing a single target as Misaki now, even Lady Justice is a little bit behind.

Basically just wanted to reinforce this. Using a TTB, Shang, and/or Yamaziko companion bomb w/ Misaki can make for some awesome melee killing action. Misaki can drop the harder to kill or high threat models, and then companioned models can either move to block charge lanes, or engage/kill other nearby models in melee range. Keeping Misaki supported by some of her other crew models was beneficial.

[Odin1981]

I'm not saying she is op. It has only been a short while she has been out. It is just that I see the potential with her to possibly be ridiculous if taken a certain way. This scenario will be a long ways off (2-3 months) due to people buying her + models being released. But the potential for bounding her in via 1 torakage she activates kills 1-2 things then torakage #2 bounding her out. Potentially all in one simaltanious action via a companion 10t brother and you have a new yoyo mechanic reintroduced to the game. And we all see how well that went over last time.

[nix]

@Odin thats true, and I expect we will see it a fair amount come winter when her crew is fully released and people have experience playing her. It could be nasty, but its only 18 inches for the swap, which is shorter than the Dreamer yo-yo.

I think the whole 10T book is going to change the game. In my opinion, the change is for the better as tactics continue to evolve and people get better at the game overall.

*grin*

[dgraz]

@Odin thats true, and I expect we will see it a fair amount come winter when her crew is fully released and people have experience playing her. It could be nasty, but its only 18 inches for the swap, which is shorter than the Dreamer yo-yo.

I think the whole 10T book is going to change the game. In my opinion, the change is for the better as tactics continue to evolve and people get better at the game overall.

*grin*

Totally agree about the tactical evolution.

Misaki's potential Yo-yo isn't anything close to what LCB's was. Misaki requires multiple models be on the board to pull off this one gimmick. Once one of those models is gone, it is greatly reduced and if you kill the right model (the Bro...which isn't all that hard) it is completely shut down.

[Odin1981]

Yeah it is shorter but 18" isn't anything to scoff at (1/2 the board). Change will be good for the game to grow I agree with you there. I'm still personally suprised how people haven't figured out how to turn 1 bomb with colette yet (granted I understand you Bill and me both play colette differantly but it is there right now maybe if I have the funds to get to adepticon I could show it in a con tournament environment). But I can see how certain mechanics throughout the game so far have had mechanics changed that haven't been healthy (turn 1 on you in your deployment zone stuff, leve in book 1 was also changed due to this way back in the day).

So it might not be as abusive as previous yoyo's or push out turn 1 tactics have been in the past. But for two turns the misaki player dictates that 3-4 models will die for only leaving one model to eat the counterattack (torakage first swoop, then a defense 7 ss user who I in no way thinks is "fragile" like most people think mei feng could fit the bill as well only without fast she could have difficulty having ap left to swoop out).

[Kadeton]

18" is around credible threat range for just about everyone, though, surely... are there any Masters that can't do serious damage at roughly that range? Half of them could pull back again if they wanted to, as well. That seems a perfectly reasonable yo-yo range without breaking the game at all - it was the 36"+ yo-yo that was a problem.

I do think Misaki's pretty fragile for a Master. She's basically like one of the Viktorias, with 1 point of extra Df and Wp and 3 extra Wds.

[dgraz]

I do think Misaki's pretty fragile for a Master. She's basically like one of the Viktorias, with 1 point of extra Df and Wp and 3 extra Wds.

And there is only one of her.......

[FearLord]

Df 7 and use Soul stone is nothing to sneeze at, sure - but in comparison to most masters, it isn't much of a protection... She does have a few other abilities, but a determined assault should have little difficulty bringing her down...

I stand by the fact that she is fragile for a master, in the same sense that she is deadly for a master - all masters can give and take a fair amount of damage one way or another - she's on the low side for ability to take damage, but on the high side for ability to deal it...

[Odin1981]

Look I'm just saying I have a little concern with her. I'm not saying she will turn into a guarented cuddle worthy master. I'm just looking at things from the past (book 1 and book 2) that have gotten errata's for having certain potentials and while I wholeheartedly admit she doesn't have turn 1 plays like they did. She dictates the flow of the game if used correctly to where you start piece trading and you our up 3-4 to 1 when she finishes her turn 3 activation. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not complaining. I'm not whining she is broken. I'm just simply saying I can see potential in around 6 months or so for there to be whining about a certain style she (and other masters) can play to where if you can't play cat and mouse you probably won't get a favorable result in a competitive environment. It could key word could have the potential to be format warping. But I also understand we are a long ways off from even potentially seeing the effects of that (from her or other masters present and/or coming out in all factions).

Edited October 5, 2012 by Odin1981