Dead Doxy vs Rotten Belle?

[Gruesome]

Isn't there a bunch more magic weapons coming down the pipe too?

[CannonFodder]

Going back to the Dead Doxie debate, I find their extra walk is good for tieing up ranged models, with a potential 3 walks you can easily engage most ranged models. Also with aSeamus they gain terror which is really good with their mobility & 2 inch melee ranged.

Their goal is to be point in melee force.

[Omenbringer]

Going back to the Dead Doxie debate, I find their extra walk is good for tieing up ranged models, with a potential 3 walks you can easily engage most ranged models. Also with aSeamus they gain terror which is really good with their mobility & 2 inch melee ranged.

Their goal is to be point in melee force.

I would agree with that assesment as well, though would add that once engaged they do very well at fixing the model in place and allow the rest of the crew to either catch up or get away from the threat.

[Sybaris]

In a molly crew, would you get 1 or 2 doxies at the start of the encounter?

[Stepfan]

I'm honestly tempted to say none. But the few times I've taken a Doxy it's only been the one. For all I know the second really makes them pop.

However, I usually find I want two damage doers(Sybelle and Rouge Necromancy), two rotten belles, and three crooligans(I honestly find these guys fantastic so far), at 35ss. So finding the 5 for a Doxy is had, let alone 10 for two.

Usually Molly's crew seems fast enough to not need the Doxies ability to move around models.

[SoulG]

Wait, you've found Crooligans to be amazing? Can you share how? I've been trying to get them to work.

Take Doxies if you need to reach objectives really quickly. Even with Molly, they can move a good 12". If you get the Mask in your hand necessary, you can move them an additional 5".

[Lamontius]

I'm a sucker for a thematic crew/army/warband, so adding the Doxies to the Redchapel Gang just seems right.

That being said, it seems wyrd (olololol) to dismiss Seamus and his ladies as a "slow" crew in tournament play, in a thread about a minion that can potentially move so fast.

[MudgeBlack]

Wait, you've found Crooligans to be amazing? Can you share how? I've been trying to get them to work.

<snip>

I have only used them once and a single one at that and found them to be very durable (against shooting) with their cloud effect, very mobile (again, cloud effect) , and great at interacting with objectives (1 interact, and after interacting a free walk). I still have some experimenting to do but I was happily surprised by them and I think multiple of them would only increase this.

[Stepfan]

Wait, you've found Crooligans to be amazing? Can you share how? I've been trying to get them to work.

*snipped*

Well I'm currently working on a pullmyfinger entry for them so sure. :-) Note I've yet to use them with another leader other than Molly. I intend to start soon, having found them as useful as I have.

I've found, especially for objective games, they can move in and interact to escape. Then if you need to guard the area, throw up the mist(which has no suit requirement yay!) and you have a Df 7 model that assuming you can keep a Mask around can turn into a spirit with 5 wounds. If you feel they're being threatened beyond their ability to live and you need them still, then either drag in another crooligan to attack(although only if you have a decent Tome as they need it to be really good at combat a 2/3/4 damage flip with Poison 1 is pretty good, you can one shot a few things with that moderate/severe), or use Return to Sender to pull them out of there entirely. I do think you need three, but again still working out the amount required.

What they don't do is run off alone and deal with enemy threats. They work better in tandem, I've yet to get a solitary one to work out as well as I wanted(though it seems MudgeBlack has). They also can't just go murder enemy models, they are more defensive in nature. But again Df7 Spirits with 5 wounds is at least in my experience a very solid defensive model, and I don't seem to need low masks for anything else(you want a usually but since if you could cheat high you wouldn't need the mask necessarily as then you didn't take damage a low mask is a decent bet). A fun trick though since they're spirits till the Resolve Effects step if you/your opponent attack one and then you get the trigger off they can go through wall/terrain and pull the other Crooligans with them).

As a last thought I usually cast "The Mist" then Wk figuring that a walk of 6 and Df7 is better then a Wk of 8. (As it does say that the caster is effected by The Mist on the card). And since most Resseructionist things seem to need Crows more than anything else, I usually have an 8-10 in my hand that's not a useful suit. Of course I probably wouldn't cheat in a Severe unless it was completely necessary, but I think that weighing when to use cards is part of the game.

[Gruesome]

The thing that I do not like about their defensive trigger is that if they die as spirit, no corpse, yes?

[Stepfan]

Unfortunatly yes, sort of the one negative of the trigger. However I usually find it worth it, though I've yet to run them with Nicodem as said above.

Although further Crooligan talk should probably be in a different thread.

[D-A-C]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

After re-reading them all I think the general consensus is that Dead Doxies are situationally useful. Therefore, because Rotten Belles are much better at multiple situations, they should be chosen first when building a crew. However, should the oppurtunity arise, having a couple of Dead Doxies available to be summoned if Seamus manages to get his hands on a high crow and corpse counter is a useful reserve.

Overall, looking at the models that sync with Seamus I can't really see why a Dead Doxy would ever feature at the opening of a game; Bete Noir, Hanged, Onyro and even Crooked Men are just too useful and would be a better investment.

I think that maybe, based on the responses of this thread (hardly scientific but still) that maybe Dead Doxies might benefit from either a simple 1ss decrease or maybe a rules amendment which gives them a more specific role.

What do you guys think?

[Omenbringer]

I think that maybe, based on the responses of this thread (hardly scientific but still) that maybe Dead Doxies might benefit from either a simple 1ss decrease or maybe a rules amendment which gives them a more specific role.

What do you guys think?

I would suggest playing them a bit yourself. I find they have a pretty defined role and are also fairly priced.

[Pierowmaniac]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

After re-reading them all I think the general consensus is that Dead Doxies are situationally useful. Therefore, because Rotten Belles are much better at multiple situations, they should be chosen first when building a crew. However, should the oppurtunity arise, having a couple of Dead Doxies available to be summoned if Seamus manages to get his hands on a high crow and corpse counter is a useful reserve.

Overall, looking at the models that sync with Seamus I can't really see why a Dead Doxy would ever feature at the opening of a game; Bete Noir, Hanged, Onyro and even Crooked Men are just too useful and would be a better investment.

I think that maybe, based on the responses of this thread (hardly scientific but still) that maybe Dead Doxies might benefit from either a simple 1ss decrease or maybe a rules amendment which gives them a more specific role.

What do you guys think?

I still think they have their place in certain strategies, for instance im toying with the idea of using 1 with Sybelle in a Treasure hunt scenario (No turn 1 interact allowed tournament rule) to give me more than 1 option for moving into place for the turn 2 grab.

[D-A-C]

I would suggest playing them a bit yourself. I find they have a pretty defined role and are also fairly priced.

I'm not trying to be daft, but what is its specficrole? As far as I can see its not doing anything all the time, but is situationally useful, but then again I have yet to play test them (I ordered a pack over 10 days ago ... sigh).

I can't see many circumstances, objectives or schemes (bar summoning mid game) where it would be better to spend 5ss on a Deady Doxy, rather than:

1. Onryo (biggest competitor in my book, and a much better 5ss investment for Seamus)

2. x1 Rotten Belle and +1 to Seamus SS cache.

3. x1 Crooked Man and +1 to Seamus SS cache.

4 x2 Canine Remains and +1 to Seamus SS cache.

5. Depositing the 5ss doirectly into Seamus SS cache.

Am I wrong, because reading all the responses I still have no real solid grasp on how this model is supposed to work tactically.

(But then again I am new to the game, just keep that in mind lol).

[DeleteAccount]

Night terrors are the gods of objectives for us, and I doubt quite a bit crooligans come even close to them. So I'd imagine people use them because they are more "combat capable" and god knows that is very debatable.

[DarcXON]

Night terrors are the gods of objectives for us, and I doubt quite a bit crooligans come even close to them. So I'd imagine people use them because they are more "combat capable" and god knows that is very debatable.

Technically speaking, the crooligans start 12" away from the objectives already. They can then have one of them Mist up and move up, while the other one shifts into the mist and gets ready to grab it. The main issue is that "Curiosity Calls" should be a 0 spell, not a 1 action.

[DeleteAccount]

Technically speaking, the crooligans start 12" away from the objectives already. They can then have one of them Mist up and move up, while the other one shifts into the mist and gets ready to grab it. The main issue is that "Curiosity Calls" should be a 0 spell, not a 1 action.

And with 2 night terrors I can grab a counter from 12" away with ease on the first turn. Add a third terror and you can activate a terror on that token 12" away on turn one and pick it up and start retreating. Crooligans can't even hope to come close to that. If Curiosity calls was a 0, it may be different, but currently, they are completely outclassed as objective grabbers.

[DarcXON]

And with 2 night terrors I can grab a counter from 12" away with ease on the first turn. Add a third terror and you can activate a terror on that token 12" away on turn one and pick it up and start retreating. Crooligans can't even hope to come close to that. If Curiosity calls was a 0, it may be different, but currently, they are completely outclassed as objective grabbers.

I meant, if the objective was more than 12" inches from your deployment zone. But yeah I agree with the Night Terrors (as it would be unreasonable not to), just playing devil's advocate for the Crooligans who get much hate from everyone.

[DeleteAccount]

I meant, if the objective was more than 12" inches from your deployment zone. But yeah I agree with the Night Terrors (as it would be unreasonable not to), just playing devil's advocate for the Crooligans who get much hate from everyone.

Well, it's sad, but the hate is mostly justified, not at the Guild Autopsy level, but not by much.

[DarcXON]

Well, it's sad, but the hate is mostly justified, not at the Guild Autopsy level, but not by much.

At least it's better than hating a model that you know is bad, but everyone else thinks it's awesome

[D-A-C]

Obviously this thread is entitled Night Terrors vs Crooligans ... oh wait.

[CRC]

You had three pages of on-topic discussion.

Conversations drift.

People are having useful discussions on getting the most out of Resurrectionist units, they may not be the units you wanted discussed, but it's still good.

[DeleteAccount]

Well, about crooligans, I did notice the Creepy rule, does it stack? If it stacks they may be useful for terror tactics, if not, well, maybe you can justify one with Seamus.

As for Dead Doxies, noticed a semicompelling combo with 2 and chiaki. Basically, have to dead doxies switching to each other while activating near chiaki to get back to two wounds and be transferable again. Remains to be seen if this trick actually has a point to it aside from being mildly annoying, but hey, throwing it out there.

[Stepfan]

Lol, well Crooligans, in my mind are not pure objective grabbers. I use them to do so yes, but they aren't as fast at it as Night Terrors are. I find them more durable and more capable of throwing a punch. I do think they benefit more from Molly's abilities then Night Terrors, but I'm still not terribly used to running her with people still so that's tentative.

I've repeatedly used them to grab objectives, but the big thing for me is not just getting it, it's getting out afterwards. For things like the treasure counters or shared line in the sand Crooligans are one of the harder things to knock of objectives. DF7 Spirits with 5 Wounds is nasty, I've had them fight off Lilith(although they've only killed her once) several times. I find their triggers great and since the crews I use don't have any other use for tomes they aren't resource hogs either.

I am still working on that pullmyfinger, but was going to do it all at once and put it up here as a thread. Plus was trying them out in non-Molly lead crews. I've had a streak of loses lately, but it seems the only reliable units are the Crooligans so far. They do what I want them to, it's McMourning that keeps on failing to deliver(so many black jokers and aces it's been ridiculous).