GTDemon777 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Yes, Nekima hits hard, yes she has 2 different action modifiers, and yes she can support the nephilim pretty well. However, i find that she could die way to easily for a 13ss model. She's huge and only DEF 4 with the only defensive talent being regen 1. Anyone could easily just focus shoot her down. In fact, a bunch of her abilities involve lower her HP, so, worth it???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) The short answer: No The somewhat longer answer: Nope The more reasonable answer: Nekima deserves to cost 13ss, as she is one of the more important Nephilim in the story, but currently, her set of rules do not justify that cost. As discussed in these forums, you'll find alot of threads talking about why this is so. The main reasons that almost everyone agrees (as far as i can collect the info), though, is her survivability being too low, and the fact that she pigeonholes the crew into a very limited selection. You can also add that her triggers are quite situational, and her melee abilities are hard to use due to her fragility (glass canon thing). From that point it goes all wild as people's opinion of what she should actually do vary from one person to the other. That being said, Terror Tot Nephilims and Young Nephilims perform well under Nekima's influence. The problem is that you pay 13ss for those buffs. In the last FAQ, Nekima was specifically mentionned as going to "get her turn" along with Hamelin, so i keep good hopes for her. In the meanwhile i'm working on a house rule for those who are impatient to get that model to use on the table. You can find the house rule thread in this forum. Edited September 14, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Poor Nekima... I'm still holding out hope for the next book to give us the ability to hire minions as henchmen (except Ronin), despite the very real possibilty that the idea was scrapped. [It need only be a template, not a whole overhaul of models on an individual basis.] [We also see in the hiring rules that in a brawl, we can take two masters and two henchmen, but so far, due to the special forces all being completely different, well, forces, none of them are compatible for that.] Just adding soulstone use, or even a limited version of it, to Nekima would go a long way towards making her survivable. [To add further insult to injury, so many models in Storm of Shadows have some kind of healing or other.] So while Nekima may get her day, that day will be when they make an entirely new model, instead of just making a tweak here and there to the current one. I'm not saying the new Misaki isn't good, but she certainly is different than her original one. In fact, I think Mei Feng's combos play out more like what Misaki could or should have become. Take her original abilities, add a few more, and go combo crazy with them. I just don't want to see Nekima completely change like that. [It was odd enough with how avatars changed the playstyle of most of the masters. Oh, you liked a certain list for your crew, think again for the avi.] She just needs a bit of survivability tacked on to an otherwise good model. Maybe upping her regen #, and / or moving regen to the end of turn with the rest of the effects ending, dmg / wds being generated from burning token, etc. That way, maybe she'll survive into the next turn, instead of hoping to take initiative on that next turn, just to get her out of the sticky situation she may be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTDemon777 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Admittedly, id find it interesting if Nekima had use SS, but then she's be taking extra SS from lilith's cache. Also, i never really had a problem with avatars. I found it odd that they either changed or greatly improved their play style. However, i still find it very possible to win against them and theyre very much kill-able (cept Hammy, who's well, never kill-able) in small point games which would be the problem for mechanics like this small point games. Like in Warmahordes or Infinity. If u bring a colossal or giant robot in small point games, u have to spend so much resource to kill them and while u focus on that, the other stuff comes in to clean up the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 [it was odd enough with how avatars changed the playstyle of most of the masters. Oh, you liked a certain list for your crew, think again for the avi.] I found it odd that they either changed or greatly improved their play style. I've got a like / dislike relationship going with the avis. Fluffwise and mechanically, they're pretty solid. It just adding in an extra two schemes worth of goals to keep in mind in order to manifest that makes them (deservedly) tricky. 'nuff said. ----------------------------- Avatars are certainly killable, just like Nekima. Heck, the point cost versus number of activations, and all of the other resource management (stones, control cards) make it so that with even a minimal effort, a few models can get through to wound and or kill them off. Admittedly, id find it interesting if Nekima had use SS, but then she's be taking extra SS from lilith's cache. Personally, I would rather use the stones for Nekima than for Lilith most of the time. Lilith's cb and df are high enough that I haven't had to use many stones for her in that regard, and with her totem able to transposition her out of harm's way right after she's activated, she's usually safe (gotta love her being able to target through terrain when needed). Nekima's auras and pulses have her begging to be up in combat with the tots growing all around her, but that df of hers makes her so vulnerable. [What I'd really like to do is be able to upgrade models to henchmen status, so that Nekima could lead some tots, the Witchling Handler could lead some Stalkers, etc., in a fun little 25 scrap, without having to bring out the masters or master level henchmen at all. It'd be fun storywise, and it'd be quick and easy for demo-ing the game.] ------------ Some theoryfaux for a brawl: Have Lilith and Vikie lead a crew, hire Vanessa, hire a ss miner, keep the stones and the blood flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Jack* Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I've not got much to add to this, other than I'd rather have the twins than nekima, 9/10 times. [What I'd really like to do is be able to upgrade models to henchmen status, so that Nekima could lead some tots, the Witchling Handler could lead some Stalkers, etc., in a fun little 25 scrap, without having to bring out the masters or master level henchmen at all. It'd be fun storywise, and it'd be quick and easy for demo-ing the game.] I was thinking this the other day. Would be really cool. Like "Micro-faux" for tiny encounters. As an aside note, the ronin stat card v2 says they can "Not be upgraded to henchman status". Noooo idea what that actually means, but it seems an awful lot like the idea we had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) Since she's refered to as a leader in the fluff, she could definitely be a henchwoman...or even a Master on her own for that matter, but we'll only know where she's headed when Wyrd tell us. After all, misaki went from minion to master, and so did Hamelin. The only thing i could add would be that, if you want to test a house rule for her, i've started a thread to develop one here Edited September 16, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTDemon777 Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Since she's refered to as a leader in the fluff, she could definitely be a henchwoman...or even a Master on her own for that matter, but we'll only know where she's headed when Wyrd tell us. After all, misaki went from minion to master, and so did Hamelin. The only thing i could add would be that, if you want to test a house rule for her, i've started a thread to develop one here didnt the fluff specify that lilith spent time training her magic while nekima was busy just hitting people with her sword and leading the nephilim into battle? i could understand henchwoman since von schill doesnt have any magic, but i doubt she could be a master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocamel Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 In my opinion Nekima is worth the SS, but only in a grow list. Last night I decided to make a grow list for nostalgias sake (haven't used one in aaages). Before the end of the first round I had 5 Young Nephelim flying around. Sure it means I spent the first round growing instead of moving across the board, but it also meant that after that I had 5 quite mobile creatures that can charge over intervening terrain and models, have melee expert and on top of that auto-trigger Flay, making their damage output quite insane. Nekima herself didn't do a lot that game, she might hit hard but I found her far too vulnerable. Still worth the 13 points though. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a more versatile version of her, or on the flipside a henchman version of her (they tend to be a lot less versatile but stronger for it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 I was thinking this the other day. Would be really cool. Like "Micro-faux" for tiny encounters. As an aside note, the ronin stat card v2 says they can "Not be upgraded to henchman status". Noooo idea what that actually means, but it seems an awful lot like the idea we had That's exactly where the idea came from, but I think they scrapped it. So, oh no, Ronin can't be upgraded, but give us a template to upgrade Uniques and Rare 1s to Henches, for some fast, fun, microfaux. --------------- How I'd mentioned that we also see in the hiring rules that in a Brawl, we can take two masters and two henchmen, but so far, due to the special forces all being completely different, well, forces, none of them are compatible for that. So, unless all of the upcoming Henchmen belong to the exact same special forces groups (Elite Division, Horror, M&SU Asset, Doll, Freikorps, and Kin), we won't be able to run one Henchman per Master in a Brawl. Also, something to look forward to on down the line, alternate avatars for each of the masters that have them, as it says, "Players must announce what Masters in their Crews have attached Avatars, but not specifically which Avatars, when announcing their Crew compositions" (p 42, Twisting Fates). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 didnt the fluff specify that lilith spent time training her magic while nekima was busy just hitting people with her sword and leading the nephilim into battle? i could understand henchwoman since von schill doesnt have any magic, but i doubt she could be a master Well, the Nekima bits of text says that lilith spent her time building political support and plotted usurpation on her big sister, roughly. It doesn't mention magic in there (iirc), although obviously Lilith is more proefficient with magic than Nekima and that's how it should be. I'm not sure magic is necessary to be a master, besides some spells in Malifaux are not exactly magic but just a special type of action (eg. right between the eye is logically a shot from a gun). Some of Nekima's abilities are likely magical in nature, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocamel Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Given that her actions include making all the terror tots the ability to fly without wings I'd say that's fairly magical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) Magical, but innately so. When she can just blow AP to perform them, even at the cost of some Wds, instead of wasting AP, flips, and possibly cheats just to use them. ---------- Btw, I'm still not happy that the black blood shaman cannot use one of its useful spells (at work, no book) on itself as the spell has a resist, even though it can be used to heal other models with black blood, a beneficial effect (unless it's been ruled otherwise). I don't want to take both shamans just to have them heal each other. Same goes for Lilith not being able to transposition herself. Edited September 18, 2012 by i_was_like_you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) The Black Blood Shaman is one puzzle of a model for me. The buffs produced are potent, no question asked, but he does tend to require extra investment in models that are suitable to receive them. For a Nekima based list, he's the equivalent of a Young Nephilim, so it's not easy for me to commit to the trade, given Youngs benefits more from Nekima. Given that her actions include making all the terror tots the ability to fly without wings I'd say that's fairly magical. Hehe, i would tend to see it as the wings actually sprouting from the back of the mischievous tots, albeit only temporarily. With the Nephilim's growth metabolism, i think it's not impossible for Nekima to have such influence, but we both agree it's magical in a way Edited September 18, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTDemon777 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 i feel like if u smushed non-house rule Nekima and BB Shaman together, ud be paying 19-20 (dont remember ss cost for BB Shaman) ss for support models and that itd be easier to swarm the tots in that case. Course, i am not a Lilith player, so this is just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Oh, running a ton of tots can be fun. Gives you a chance to out-activate a lot of opponents. In a 35ss game, she can hire up to 11 of the buggers, leaving her a starting cache of 6ss (4ss if you pay for her avi). I'm not saying it'd be the most competitive list, but it'd certainly mess with people. [And it's also why I want the existing version Nekima to be able to run her own crew as a henchwoman. Buff the heck out of a swarm of 'em, and let 'em swarm an opponent.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Answer to thread question: no. Editorial comment: get it over, most of your faction's other models are underpriced, you have no accurate context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Underpriced, why is that the go to answer in so many of these threads? Underpriced compared to what, the Ortegas? Just being able to hire more low cost models doesn't mean one faction is getting more bang for their buck than another. With each book's power creep, it's not like there's really a baseline, nor are the abilities, the stat line, or the wound count standardized for ease of ss calculation (nor should they be, really). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Just add up what you get for the SS price of a Twin and compare to any faction. Pretty obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 A Twin? But look how limited our options become if we take the Twins together. That's 14ss right there, for just two models. [Even at 35ss, that comes down to about half, depending on how many stones we want left in our staring cache.] Sure, they're two rather impressively abused models, but it cuts down on what else we could hire and how many activations we're missing out on. Despite ss cost not following a strict formula, certain things, like the Neverborn's homefield advantage lends itself to what seems like a reduced cost to power ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) I'll bow out of this discussion now. Again, its all relative. My 7 SS model is Mortimer. Edited September 20, 2012 by ravenborne Fixed model name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTDemon777 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 to be honest, my friend wanted to try lil for nekima. He doesnt have the steadiest flow of cash so i wanted to see if she was worth the $$ and SS, (thnx guys btw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 to be honest, my friend wanted to try lil for nekima. He doesnt have the steadiest flow of cash so i wanted to see if she was worth the $$ and SS, (thnx guys btw) In that case, I'd recommend he put those $$ towards Lilith's avatar instead of Nekima. Even with the tree, aLilith is a more manageable model, and for the same $$ will only cost him 2ss. [aLilith costs $5 more, but still.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) The Hooded rider could see more table useage than Lilith Avatar, though, unless he likes waldegeist. It's 8ss and i think fairly well balanced. If he likes waldegeist, then i think Alilith is a great model to get. As for other options, Bad Juju can be tactically useful for schemes and strategy achievements, as well, and if he likes the Black Blood Shaman, then a Mature Nephilim is as good as it gets. Nekima might make a come back onto the table once Wyrd gets to her, and there are many who bought the model already (she was one of the most impressive model that Wyrd produced for quite a while, and also the most expensive in ss). There are also a few who really dig her story and want her to be more than a minion, so...we're waiting in our corners while playing her anyway Edited September 20, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) I'll bow out of this discussion now. Again, its all relative. My 7 SS model is Mortimer. lol... For strictly "value for SS Cost", not sure why anyone would run Nekima over the twins. The twins are... "very good value for their cost". But, I can understand that someone simply WANTS to run Nekima because they like her. I regularly run Mortimer and Carrion effigy for the same reason but could easily justify the SS elsewhere if efficacy was my sole criteria for model choice. I also regularly include Grave Spirit and Rotten Belles for their amazing utility vs. cost, so I'll not pretend like theme beats value every time in my lists. EDIT: Changed wording for my opinion of the twins because I am not interested in arguing about them. Edited September 20, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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