Time to give old models new love?

[Cunning]

So that makes by definition, Viks and So'mer the lower powered masters? Not sure I'd agree there - Viks have won Adepticon two years running.

So we're agreed that maybe only Som'er needs more cache? Excellent. ;-)

Edited September 13, 2012 by CunningStunt

[Nephalumps]

I'm a broken record on this topic, but I'm going to lend my voice to this once again: I think it would be extremely good for the long term health of the game if Malifaux received something akin to a "Mk. 2" treatment, though I wouldn't want to see anything as insane as the "open beta" that Privateer Press did.

Right now, there are a good number of Book 1 models that are too janky or cumbersome to really use, and I will even go so far as to say that a fair number of the Book 1 Masters could use a polish pass. Most of the time what I see with Book 1 Masters is that they are being propped up by their faction's Henchman, their Avatar, or both. While I understand that is part of the design, I think the current balance is such that it's a heavy lean, versus it being a nice thing to have.

This feels even more evident in the face of the Book 4 models. I have to commend Wyrd on Storm of Shadows: literally every model in that book is compelling and interesting. I'd buy every damn thing in that book if I could afford it and store that much stuff.

I'd love to see a polish pass on the game that put more of the models in that position. A lot of the "defunct" models just need to benefit from the increased design savvy that the devs have shown as the game has grown. And there are a chunk of very strong models that could use a bit of tuning as well, to broaden the bench of good model choices.

[Gruesome]

Caveat to post: Not played any new models.

That having been said, I was just thinking about the double-edged sword that putting out a book like Storm of Shadows is.

One the one hand, I feel like, top to bottom, it is fantastic. I read every model and think that they could be useful in some ways. Some, obviously, seem like I would use them VERY often, but none seem like I would never or even seldom use them. I think they are all good to great!

Its just a really nice job, IMO. Kudos.

But... Here comes the other edge...

Mortimer feels completely useless to me now. I like exhume as something to use my low crows on and fresh meat could be great with the right card and circumstances to help speed up my crew.

But he is left in the dust for utility by Chiaki(For cheaper) and Toshiro(For his amazing (0) movement action and awesome combat buffs, as well as raising punk zombies) for only 1 point more.

For the points, Chiaki and a canine is just much better, IMO.

Taking points out of the equation, it feels debatable to me whether Chiaki or Mortimer brings more to my crews... And she costs TWO POINTS LESS.

Now, he is much harder to kill... And if he were doing something important enough to be a primary target of the enemy, that might be more important to me.

For me, its not a Dead Rider vs. Izamu debate, where I think each excels in particular ways(And Izamu drops 3 corpse counters... ).

It feels more like Mortimer has been left in the dust.

I think it is natural that Wyrd gets better as they go. And again, I applaud them for Storm of Shadows. But, to the original point of the thread, maybe it IS time to come back around and give a little love to our original models.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Gruesome

[NeuroFire]

Only roughly a quarter of the faction (Mercs) can be hired by eveyone. The others can only be hired by one master (I think).

Yeeeah, a lot of those models are still pretty cheap. The Bayou Gremlins, for example. Super cheap (and, essentially, summonable) range twelve models with a totally decent damage profile. "Get Your Bro" makes up for the fact that they die easy. A horde of Bayou Gremlins and Skeeters coming at me? Terrifying. So'mer doesn't need a native cache, he can build one by hiring a few cheap killers.

Levi has wide hiring options, since he can take any Undead or Construct. There are a lot of good ones in the game. I've only gone against him a few times, but he's fairly formidable. And he wants to be dying, right? So fewer SS needed for defense.

Viks can only hire Mercs, and they get them all for cost. Viks terrify me., even without a bunch of really good, cheap models on the board. They consistently wreck me. Bring a Librarian and they're nearly invincible. They don't need a cache.

Hamelin? Also wide hiring options, as well as having cheap rats. Doesn't need help.

[Odin1981]

Not that anyone said somner is underpowered but i'll defend him with my 2 cents right now. The reason I feel he is underplayed is that people often don't like to take stuff that dies easily/alot. Also a lot of newer players unlike vets of the game often have limited figure selections so he could be really imposing from a need to buy standpoint.

Also the thing that I see (purely imho) is a lot of gremlin players fail to see the combo interaction between somner's if x dies within y draw 2 cards and the application of the spell where you take x wounds taget player discards that many from their hand.

I can honestly say if I didn't own a perdita crew I would run somner. However since I own a crew that is ranged based I really never would want to invest in a "more of the same" crew but I guarantee he holds potential it is just the malifaux masses are quick to dismiss any crew that requires thinking to win and is not autopilot (key example being dreamer after the errata he was almost universally abandoned because know instead of pre errata he requires to move somewhat centrally into a board before he can do crazy stuff instead of before where you could do that op'd crap turn 1 and when you finished your companion activation everything was back in your deployment zone.

[Forar]

the malifaux masses are quick to dismiss any crew that requires thinking to win and is not autopilot

Imma letchu finish, but you just described pretty much the entirety of the internet for all time. FOR ALL TIME!

Seriously. I don't know if you've played Magic, but the internet has allowed proliferation of information to a degree that finding the path of least resistance is just how a lot of people roll.

[Odin1981]

Hahaha :-). Good call. I personally like to color outside the lines/think outside of the box, but with that being said I firmly belief somner has potential it is just personally to me something I wouldn't really feel like picking up ($$ wise he wouldn't be cheap for me to pick up) and viks are my fun crew (only outcast crew I own).

I'm already invested fairly heavily in two factions (guild and arcanists) and I feel if I were to pick another crew to own it would be a one of (like my viks crew) if I could digest the upkeep of bile from my mouth that would be a zoraida crew but in all honesty I really find it hard to ever think I could invest in the purple side without wanting to blow my own brains out :-).

[Dumb Luck]

Yeeeah, a lot of those models are still pretty cheap. The Bayou Gremlins, for example. Super cheap (and, essentially, summonable) range twelve models with a totally decent damage profile. "Get Your Bro" makes up for the fact that they die easy. A horde of Bayou Gremlins and Skeeters coming at me? Terrifying. So'mer doesn't need a native cache, he can build one by hiring a few cheap killers.

Levi has wide hiring options, since he can take any Undead or Construct. There are a lot of good ones in the game. I've only gone against him a few times, but he's fairly formidable. And he wants to be dying, right? So fewer SS needed for defense.

Viks can only hire Mercs, and they get them all for cost. Viks terrify me., even without a bunch of really good, cheap models on the board. They consistently wreck me. Bring a Librarian and they're nearly invincible. They don't need a cache.

Hamelin? Also wide hiring options, as well as having cheap rats. Doesn't need help.

Having a wide variety of models or a good but limited pool of models cannot make up for a zero cache. Other masters have caches and have an entire faction's worth of models to pick from. Marcus has a cache and can hire anything from Arcanists, along with any beast from any faction. With the introduction of Ten Thunders, this reasoning holds even less water. The faction can dip its toes into pretty much every other faction and still afford to find a few Soulstones lodged down the back of the sofa.

[NeuroFire]

Having a wide variety of models or a good but limited pool of models cannot make up for a zero cache. Other masters have caches and have an entire faction's worth of models to pick from.

You're really missing my point about the cheapness of the minions. Outcast masters can build their own cache by taking any number of the cheap and powerful minions readily available to them. That is the balance of the game.

I've run against plenty of Outcast crews who have a full compliment of SS and still have the minion resources to kick my teeth in because there are so many good models for a low cost. So no, I don't see any reason to give them another two stones to hire another model with.

[poulpox]

Well I don't usually participate in forum discussion much, and interestingly the only reason I came to the Wyrd forum today was to post a thread exactly like the OP, so this is a sign! PandaBear we think alike!

One point which I want to add is that a lot of players initially purchased models because they looked good/to their liking, regardless of their stats, and the evident arms race mentioned in the OP which renders those beloved book1 models obsolete and redundant is a terrible thing because players like myself simply do not want to buy new models just because they're better, so we remain we our old love, feeling left behind; the gaming world (like any hobby for that matter) is an easy way to prey on people's never-ending thirst of more and hoarding; people buybuybuy toys they never open or play with, simply because their desire and compulsion has been titillated. It’s a great sales move, but somehow a creepy one too. Now this said, I appreciate a company has to survive make cash and keep a community interested, I guess it’s all in the way things are presented: if there is no option to have good models but buy new ones, then the system is flawed and abusing the players; if on the other hand new models simply expand and diversify game play then it’s a more constructive approach (book2 masters brought to the table completely new ways of playing which were brilliant on a game mechanics point of view).

I personally don’t really want to keep on buying new models, I have already four crews, I like them and I just want a few different options and play the game, so I guess my ideal would be for book1 models to be re-thought so I just need to get new models’ cards. Yet a compromise, beneficial to Wyrd and book1 players which I would find attractive, could also be to release new models which allow for book1 models to be useful; these could be cheap utility models which grant a suit or companion or things like that.

What about objects, like 1-2ss Books or Carts or something (it shouldn’t be too expensive and benefit several models otherwise they would impair the possibility to take the old models as well as the new). I have the feeling the Effigies were meant to serve this purpose, so maybe this could be exploited further (although the object would need some allegiance restriction to avoid strong masters/minions benefiting their boost, all easier said than done! ).

Of the models I play, models like Cerberus and RN in a Marcus crew could be able to gain Eat your Fill or similar (a healer model such as a swift (to keep up with the team) canteen-kinda dude would work great in a Marcus beast crew; the minions are too easy to kill but if they could be healed easily it would make most book1 beasts much better). Myranda could thus gain her Tome suit (which could also help aMarcus to get a little less lame) or a Ram suit (and become the afore-mentioned healer), or the Cerberus and Necropunks could gain Mask to be able to Leap better. Bishop, oooh… Bishop doesn’t need much, maybe Hard to Kill and a slight increase in his Dg output? Hans needs some defensive thing of some sort or something, maybe 1 or 2 more points in Cb?

Regarding the actual minis I’m actually happy with the ones I have, so I wouldn’t likely buy new casts.

The final point of the OP is also a little of a worry: too much diversity is dangerous to a fluid gameplay; you arrive in a tourney these days and you have no idea what some masters/models do, you can’t remember all the different abilities and it makes it a brain torture to think of what to do. As it is today I am for reducing the expansion of the minis line and increasing the attention given to different aspects of the game (campaign for instance). Let the players play with what they have for a while (well first do something about book1!), give them time to know their crews inside out.

Poulpox out

Edited September 14, 2012 by poulpox

[Insane_Prophet]

I'd imagine that a reassessment of certain models in Malifaux is fairly inevitable. Frankly, the game has changed a lot since Book 1 and no amount of internal or external playtesting can match the years of play the game has had since then.

I can't see things ever being perfect, or everyone being happy, but I think Storm of Shadows (and Twisting Fates) have found a nice benchmark that it would make sense to compare other models to.

(Personally, I'd be disappointed by anything less)

[Omenbringer]

So we're agreed that maybe only Som'er needs more cache? Excellent. ;-)

Hope this is sarcasm cause Som'er definately doesn't need a cache, his crew is very efficient with out one.

[Sniddy]

...I don't think anyones really objecting to something being done to make old models more playable...and maybe even some balance

I can see buffs to some of the older models, making shapesfting easier for myrand is right up there on my list - other minor minor little buffs, Bishops to get rebalanced/priced, hans to get a little bit more 'bang for his buck'

I can even see the cuddle gun lineing up on some things, hamlin in particular needs a little something to make him fun to play against and not, rat,rat, rat, rat...oh look you killed something it's a rat - Levi....maybea minor brush over...heck even the vics maybe limit the 3" sisters in spirit to base to base...making it a little less abusive (terrain hopping FTW)

I'd give marcus an offensive spell or ranged gun....part of me even wants to put the jackolops to 2 SS as at 1 it is ludicriously cheep even if it really isn't that affective but for 1 ss it has more then that impact on the game...but as of right now marcus needs a little extra

Little things, both cuddle and boost....

How I'd do it is pick a faction a month and get some feedback and then propose a list of changes to discuss then start 'working them in'

[Cyphre]

IMO the quick fix for almost all models would be to decrease their ss cost. Imagine Mortimer at 5 ss, the Ice Golem at 6 ss etc. That would IMO immediately make them a more attractive option.

[Gruesome]

IMO the quick fix for almost all models would be to decrease their ss cost. Imagine Mortimer at 5 ss, the Ice Golem at 6 ss etc. That would IMO immediately make them a more attractive option.

This is my preference and why I found the comp package specific to model costs more appealing than trying to tweak 1000000 models and dealing with the repercussions of new unforeseen interactions.

SS cost is an easy lever to adjust, does not require more playtesting and is easily undone if new information comes to light or new models suddenly bolster old ones in some way.

I like Mortimer. I LOVE his model. It makes me sad that so often I would rather do something else with 7 points. I still play him. But its a bit of a bummer to feel like I am shorting myself when I field him just because I like him.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Gruesome

[JisaacT]

We will see what the future holds. I hope for a rework of some models. I don't remember te last time I actually fielded the copy cat killer. But this hobby is also about collecting for some people. It is for me. It's my first real collection of anything. So it doesn't bother me too much.

[DarcXON]

Hope this is sarcasm cause Som'er definately doesn't need a cache, his crew is very efficient with out one.

./facepalm

As an Outcast player, I sometimes feel that he should be Cache 8. Seriously, him and his crew end up being too easy to kill and usually can't grab objectives because of this. They can win, but so far every game has been an uphill battle.

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

We will see what the future holds. I hope for a rework of some models. I don't remember te last time I actually fielded the copy cat killer. But this hobby is also about collecting for some people. It is for me. It's my first real collection of anything. So it doesn't bother me too much.

But we can have a nice collection of models AND have a use for them.

[Gruesome]

The thing about SS caches pretty much always comes down to, how much of a supporting cast does a given master need.

You can give ANY master a cache of 8. Some masters just cripple their crew size to do so.

I know nothing about Somer, so would not comment on him other than to ask whether he is capable of bringing enough supporting models when his SS cache has the number of stones most people feel he needs.

As a Seamus player that regularly boosts his starting cache, I know that I feel as if I am regularly taking away needed punch from my lists to give him the cache I feel he needs to work well. When I play McMourning, it feels much much easier to build a killer list.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Gruesome

[NeuroFire]

Som'er can easily have a cache of 8. As I repeatedly stated, all he needs to do is hire a skeeter and a Bayou Gremlin or two, plus whatever beefier models you might want. Then Som'er can sit there going "Get Your Bro, Take A Swig" and just pump out a bunch of range 12 models that can act as killers and distractions while objectives get taken care of. At the same time, skeeters can reproduce and slowly sting the opponent to death. These are cheap guys, so there's plenty left over to build whatever cache you want.

[Omenbringer]

./facepalm

As an Outcast player, I sometimes feel that he should be Cache 8. Seriously, him and his crew end up being too easy to kill and usually can't grab objectives because of this. They can win, but so far every game has been an uphill battle.

This is more likely due to how you are playing him rather than his cache.

Yes they are easy to kill when trying to run heads up against most crews, but that is definately not where they should ever really be. Add in the fact that Som'er has many ways of replacing losses in game and has some of the best methods of grabbing objectives late in the game (with a good pig ladder you can get a significant Bayou Gremlin with its full compliment of AP damn near across the board in one turn).

They can definately win (consistently) but are much more of a finesse force than most people think. Hell it wasn't but a few months ago that several forumites were lamenting that he is potentially the most broken master in the game.

Som'er can easily have a cache of 8. As I repeatedly stated, all he needs to do is hire a skeeter and a Bayou Gremlin or two, plus whatever beefier models you might want. Then Som'er can sit there going "Get Your Bro, Take A Swig" and just pump out a bunch of range 12 models that can act as killers and distractions while objectives get taken care of. At the same time, skeeters can reproduce and slowly sting the opponent to death. These are cheap guys, so there's plenty left over to build whatever cache you want.

Definately agree that Som'er needs the "Staple" models to really be consistently effective. Though the Summon Factory is good it is also somewhat unreliable (hitting that CC is rather difficult turn in and turn out). He could have a Cache of 8 but will be behind the power curve if he does it, plus Gremlins really don't need a large cache anyway (they are pretty efficient in that regard).

[DarcXON]

This is more likely due to how you are playing him rather than his cache.

I see what you did there. If what you say is true, how come you never see Gremlins close to the top in tourneys?

I keep noticing the word "finesse" used as an all include whenever a crew doesn't win effectively. In reality Masters can have finesse AND still be a strong force. Examples of these are Pandora, Collette, Dreamer and Viks. These are truly finesse masters that have been at the top consistently.

I have won with Gremlins, but I had to do things that took more luck than skill to get them to work. Or to do combos that have been errata'd since. The really strong spells require you to sacrifice a lot of wounds, a high card and/or stones and be dangerously close to the enemy.

As you already know his summoning requires an 11 and on top of that you need a specific model for it to work. You have a shorter hand so you really rely on luck to pull those high cards.

I would continue, but I figure that I have ranted enough and this is not a Somer power level Discussion per se.

[Omenbringer]

I see what you did there. If what you say is true, how come you never see Gremlins close to the top in tourneys?

First, let me apologize, after re-reading that clip it does come off as insulting (which was definately not intended). Som'er (like most Outcast crews) is not a straight forward Master or crew that can win on the strengths of one model or interaction (like Ophelia can), Som'er's crew is all about the combinations and activation order.

The reasons you dont see them played a lot in tournaments though is due to two things; First, not everyone wants to play gremlins (they are an expensive crew to field and have a lot of combinations/ interactions to learn) and second the crew is largely attrition based and normally requires a full compliment of turns to consistently win (something that is far from guarantied in tournament play). This doesn't mean Som'er and the gremlins aren't competitive, they definately are (there are plenty of other players that will tell you the same, and at least one recent thread that suggests he is one of the most broken in the game).

I keep noticing the word "finesse" used as an all include whenever a crew doesn't win effectively. In reality Masters can have finesse AND still be a strong force. Examples of these are Pandora, Collette, Dreamer and Viks. These are truly finesse masters that have been at the top consistently.

Most people wouldn't consider a lot of those crews really finesse forces, but all are definately strong (and also very forgiving to mistakes which gremlins aren't). Again though I would argue that the gremlins can and do effectively win and quite consistently as well.

I have won with Gremlins, but I had to do things that took more luck than skill to get them to work. Or to do combos that have been errata'd since. The really strong spells require you to sacrifice a lot of wounds, a high card and/or stones and be dangerously close to the enemy.

There are only 2 combos that have been errated with the vanilla Som'er crew (the old infinite Red Joker draw and the related Infinite Skeeter Summons) neither of which is or was required for them to be effective. All of the normally recommended tactics are still very potent and effective.

A Gremlin's Luck and Pull My Finger are strong but neither require a ridiculously high card to be successful (the former is successful 46% of the time with cheating and the latter is successful 31% of the time with cheating) and neither has a resist so hitting the CC is success. The Alpha Stank (which would spam those "really strong spells") requires you to be close to your opponent but with skillful use of activations and positioning can be performed with out real risk to Som'er or the Skeeters (aside from the Wds incurred for casting A Gremlin's Luck).

Though I use both of those spells I consider Sooey! a much more potent spell than the either of them.

As you already know his summoning requires an 11 and on top of that you need a specific model for it to work. You have a shorter hand so you really rely on luck to pull those high cards.

Definately agree that the Som'er Summon Factory tactic is his least effective method of running (for the reasons you have listed) it does improve the potential of several of his other tactics (which all benefit from ample "staple" models for Som'er). Also consider that Get Your Bro is successfully cast about 24% of the time with cheating. Using it to augment his other main tactics (Pig Boomerang, Gremlin Gunline, Alpha Stank, etc.) instead of trying to summon lots of "free" models is a much more consistent and sustainable path to victory.

I do agree that luck is a big part of Malifaux but Gremlin's have several great ways of bypassing or influencing it.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Omenbringer

[DarcXON]

I do agree that luck is a big part of Malifaux but Gremlin's have several great ways of bypassing or influencing it.

Funny you say that, because I don't think Luck plays too much in Malifaux. The card mechanic allows us to have some planning and control of our actions. When we have a bad hand thats bad luck, but even then we are getting a warning about it. With Gremlins I notice that luck swings them wildly into the negative spectrum.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't know your meta and you don't know mind, so maybe our experiences are wildly different.

[Omenbringer]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't know your meta and you don't know mind, so maybe our experiences are wildly different.

It wasn't that long ago I was playing actively in your local meta, with any luck I'll be coming back up that way again soon. I am very much looking forward to checking out Gamer's Gauntlet as it is a much closer venue than RIW or Pandemonium to my house.

[DarcXON]

It wasn't that long ago I was playing actively in your local meta, with any luck I'll be coming back up that way again soon. I am very much looking forward to checking out Gamer's Gauntlet as it is a much closer venue than RIW or Pandemonium to my house.

Actually I just got here, I used to play at Huzzah Hobbies in Virginia. The guys there are seriously wicked.

The guys here are great, but I still haven't had the chance to check out their Tournament Scene

Edited September 16, 2012 by DarcXON