The Impending Malifaux RPG

[Kuro]

It easier to add grids, than to remove them in any system.

Adding grids:

Step one: Determine what one square/hex represents in feet/yards/meters.

Step two: there is no step two.

Removing grids:

Steps one through ???: Replace every rule that demands detailed knowledge of exact placement, such as Attacks of opportunity, combat advantage etc.

Not saying it's impossible, just saying that it is easier to use a gridless RPG and use the Malifaux setting with that instead of bothering with all the work of replacing grid-based rules.

I can see your point, but I think it would be a waste for a RPG based off a miniature skirmish game to not utilize miniatures as a primary feature of the game. You already have a really nice range of minis to support it. If that isn't something somebody wants, it wouldn't be difficult to just use the source fluff and put it in another game system.

SO what you are saying is that because a system can be broken by power gamers, it is useless? That would encompass every game ever.

Too true! Just don't play RPGs with those people. Power gamers completely miss the point of RPGs, anyways.

[Bruglyother]

What I'd like to see, really, is some mix of the two, where you go up a level, get some flat bonuses(especially if it is a classed system--they should be bonuses to that class) and some points to distribute on abilities(limited only by what abilities you currently have).

I know Anima has been suggested. Have you looked into White Wolf Games? There "Levels" are predominantly story driven, while their Stats are experience driven. "Levels" give access to certain abilities, but you can get to be pretty powerful while still being at a low level. (Although each of their systems handles this differently. And I am only really knowledgeable about the older versions.)

[Sliver Chocobo]

I feel for you.

Anima is originally a spanish RPG (and a minis game, and a card game) that is translated and distributed by Fantasy Flight Games, it combines a strong Anime-feel with European mythology. I'll admit to not being a big Anime fan and thus being somewhat hesitant at first, but now I like the game and the setting is growing on me.

SOTC does suffer somewhat from being one of the first FATE systems out there. I don't really consider what it and Legends of Anglerre has levels though, as two people with 6 aspects can still be of vastly different "power", unlike D&D there are also other things to be good at than combat.

Ideally, to me, the game should primarily be geared towards playing citizens of Malifaux. If a character has, or develops a relationship or even status within a power group in the city (like the Guild or M&SU) that should be the player's choice, not dictated by the game itself.

---------- Post added at 06:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

You do understand the difference between a level based system and having a skill-tree but free to spend your XP in any way you choose right?

Mechanics don't make a story happen, but some in some RPGs story has to happen IN SPITE of mechanics and in some it is encouraged.

A skill tree is a type of levelling system, you gain XP and gain abilities, just because it doesn't have number doesn't mean it's not a levelling system just one that can pretend it's not

[Loxley]

This should be easy. Almost all factions are predominantly human. The only ones that would be a problem would be Neverborn and Gremlins....but even those are doable with some creative story-telling.

Only a few things would truly be difficult....I can't see a Mature Nephilim character or a Rotten Belle (for examples).

I think all of this should be doable. My history with OWoD showed that with creative character creation and GMing even the most base character can be played.

Take Werewolf: The Apoc. I can't see the Get being THAT different to a full grown Neph. Or perhaps a better comparison would be a Spiral Dancer to some of the Woes.

The important thing is to give each creature a level of intelligence and allow players the ability to plug into that intelligence. It just requires a motivation beyond "ME SMASH!"

[nifoc]

SO what you are saying is that because a system can be broken by power gamers, it is useless? That would encompass every game ever.

I gauruntee if you look hard enough, you can find a board where people figure damage output/effort, and best skill tracks for any game that is vaguely popular.

Whatever gave you that impression? I just stated that levels are not a good indicator of power as the games are not balanced.

Well personally I am of the strong opinion that RPGs don't need to be balanced really. Thats the GMs job. Things should be in place to make sure all players feel like they are contributing but the vast majority of RPG balancing is all about making sure everyone can kick butt in combat.

I really hope that Malifaux takes its influence from games like Call of Cthulhu and don't emphasize combat as much as investigation and mystery and horror.

They don't. All I'm saying is that using levels as an indicator of power becomes useless if the games is not balanced with that in mind.

I'm hoping for more mystery and horror and less combat as well.

I can see your point, but I think it would be a waste for a RPG based off a miniature skirmish game to not utilize miniatures as a primary feature of the game. You already have a really nice range of minis to support it. If that isn't something somebody wants, it wouldn't be difficult to just use the source fluff and put it in another game system.

I understand the reason people want miniatures, I have stated that I don't like them in RPGs and would like to know if they will be a primary feature or not before backing this project. That is all.

[Dracomax]

I think that there should be some balance--Noone should be outshined because the other character is better at everything.

That being said, I have no problems with the balance being PC1 is wicked at combat, PC2 is wicked at social situations, if both have at least some ability to contribute to both.

I think Fate generally does this well, but I also think it has the problem that what you are going to do, while supported by the rules, is not suggested by the rules. What I mean is this--I had a player who hates fate, because he has to "make up" what he's going to do. He prefers to have some set abilities that don't require a lot of thought to use. I think that's a valid point, if not an overriding one. The rules should offerEnough structure that players don't become lost.

On a larger scale, I think what we are really talking about is where on the scale of narrative-mechanics, or Roll Playing vs. Role Playing. In case it hasn't been clear, I think the ideal games should be close to the center--the rules should provide clear, present structure, that is flexible enough to allow most actions, yet not require too many on the spot judgments of "can I/how do I do this." Games whose rules focus entirely on combat don't interest me much(I am not a big fan of 4E D&D) and games with few or no rules tend to devolve into arguments, powergaming(ironically), and people just going their own ways. I look at it as the same as a sonnet-the harsh sturcture makes ironically helps the poet be more creative and free. Restrictions suggest direction, whereas lack of restriction can cause decision paralysis.

I Think many of the other people here lean more toward the narrative side of the scale. that's okay. I just haven't had many good experiences there, due to people spending(ironically) much more time trying to figure out how to do something, or not really having any idea of what to do.

[Gruesome]

Personally, I hope it starts simple.

A new character is a human fresh through the breach.

The idea of playing Neverborn and all these other sorts of things takes too much "mystery" out of it IMO. They are the "dragons" of this D&D world.

I realize everyone will want to be everything, but I am hoping its mostly about being regular people that are new and the world unfolding before your eyes rather than being an aspect of the Villainy and plots yourself.

But, I doubt it will be this way...

[nifoc]

A skill tree is a type of levelling system, you gain XP and gain abilities, just because it doesn't have number doesn't mean it's not a levelling system just one that can pretend it's not

Not really. In a game where you buy stuff with XP you can decide exactly where every point of your XP goes, if you don't want to buy that next Skill in the tree just now, but would rather your character focused on something else, particularly since he hasn't really been spending a lot of time with his coffin recently, then you can. In a level-system things are taken level-by-level. Sure, you might be able to choose where in the tree he goes, but he still gets +1 to combat and a Skill at this level.

See the difference now? If you don't then we'll just agree to disagree and drop it.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Personally, I hope it starts simple.

A new character is a human fresh through the breach.

The idea of playing Neverborn and all these other sorts of things takes too much "mystery" out of it IMO. They are the "dragons" of this D&D world.

I realize everyone will want to be everything, but I am hoping its mostly about being regular people that are new and the world unfolding before your eyes rather than being an aspect of the Villainy and plots yourself.

But, I doubt it will be this way...

That should be a GM biased decision, the option to play Neverborn won't effect you if you don't want to play Neverborn

Now the big problem is how resser's play, too OP and they can cause problem if their under powered no one would want risk it

[nifoc]

That should be a GM biased decision, the option to play Neverborn won't effect you if you don't want to play Neverborn

On the one hand I understand and agree with Gruesomes sentiments. Revealing too much about the Neverborn, their psyche and social habits, i.e. making them playable, does remove the feeling of the Unknown from them. However I normally argue that one should BE ABLE to play anything, even one of the Tyrants without it breaking the system. That does not make everything, very much including the Tyrans in this one, suited for most playing groups. Some parts of the Neverborn (Silurids, Nephilim) might be an idea to include, but Nightmares and such become way too abstract IMO.

[Kuro]

I think all of the factions are esoteric. Sure, the Neverborn have nebulous motivations and a mysterious back story, but I could say the same for the Guild, or the Ressers, or the Arcanists. Do we really know more about Lucius than, say, Zoraida or Lilith?

Malifaux is supposed to be a crazy place where people arrive and start entirely new lives that shoot off in every direction. Shouldn't players be able to do the same thing?

[nifoc]

I think all of the factions are esoteric. Sure, the Neverborn have nebulous motivations and a mysterious back story, but I could say the same for the Guild, or the Ressers, or the Arcanists. Do we really know more about Lucius than, say, Zoraida or Lilith?

Malifaux is supposed to be a crazy place where people arrive and start entirely new lives that shoot off in every direction. Shouldn't players be able to do the same thing?

There is IMO a huge difference between playing a human with strange ideas, and playing something whose brain does not process information in the way that humans do. Not saying that it is impossible to do, much like one can pretend to play someone suffering from a psychiatric maladie, just that it requires a lot of information on their society, information that might ruin the mystery of the Neverborn, to be able to pull it of convincingly.

Consider it like this: We can assume that Lucius is human, which tells us a lot of things about him, needs (food, water, air etc), urges (all humans share certain urges, not all of them sexual) and the like. We know that Lilith is a Nephilim, but what does she need? want? or have the urge to? What motivates a nephilim?

See the difference?

Edited September 7, 2012 by nifoc

[Dracomax]

I honestly think the biggest problem with starting as anything other than a wet behind the ears breech born human is that of parties. Why exactly is a guild enforcer going to travel with a necromancer initiate, a neverborn terror tot, and a gremlin prodigy? I foresee a lot of mental gymnastics.

[nifoc]

I honestly think the biggest problem with starting as anything other than a wet behind the ears breech born human is that of parties. Why exactly is a guild enforcer going to travel with a necromancer initiate, a neverborn terror tot, and a gremlin prodigy? I foresee a lot of mental gymnastics.

I agree, but then again I tell my players to create a group, not just a random bunch of individuals, and make sure that their characters have reasons to cooperate as I have no intention of getting a headache doing that for them while they have a shootout. That doesn't preclude us from playing out them meeting for the first time, just that we all know that's what's going to happen. I have discovered it prevents a lot of unnecessary problems if I just tell them to handle it themselves.

[CRC]

What I do not want from a Malifaux RPG:

• D&D. "old" editions are really more proto-rpg than rpg proper. Even pathfinder is barely past being a miniatures war game. 4th is even something of a regression (albeit a fun one). If I want to play a mini-wargame, I'll play Malifaux/D&D/...
  
• Necromunda. We already have a squad level tactical game, we don't need another one.
  
• An extreme dramatist RPG. (e.g. Amber, Metalocracy, Lord Kagematsu, Dread, ...). While those are also fun, they also don't feel right for Malifaux to me.

What I want from it as a system:

• Something like Savage Worlds. Let me be honest here. I am going to measure it directly against SW, and if it comes up short, I'm going to port it to SW and play that with the Malifaux RPG as a world book.
  
• Fudge. (karma, luck, edge, soul stones, fate, ...). I feel the ability of players to influence the luck when the result is important to them is critical to a modern RPG.
  
• A "skill-based" system. Levels are kludge from the war game days or recruit/regular/veteran/elite.
  
• An interesting and appropriate magic system. Please leave any preconceptions inherited from Vance or Morcock at the door.
  
• A mechanical system without major mathematical anomalies. While the whole Seamus/Red Joker thing doesn't bother me much, it would be a critical issue if Seamus was a PC...

What I want from it as a setting:

• A lower power level, at least at the start. While there is a crazy stuff out there, I think "guild guard" is an appropriate level to start at.
  
• Lots of story hooks. I want the world to feel vibrant and full of adventure that the players can get involved in.
  
• A slightly different theme. The theme of the TWG is very "fate happens" and "people swept up in events beyond their understanding". It's a good theme for stories or miniatures, but player need more involvement. They need to be movers and shakers. Stuff needs to happen not to them, but because of them.
  
• The ability to play arcanists and resurrectionists.

Systems I think you should look at to compare:

• Deadlands
  
• Feng Shui
  
• CthulhuTech
  
• World of Darkness
  
• All Flesh Must be Eaten

[Kuro]

There is IMO a huge difference between playing a human with strange ideas, and playing something whose brain does not process information in the way that humans do. Not saying that it is impossible to do, much like one can pretend to play someone suffering from a psychiatric maladie, just that it requires a lot of information on their society, information that might ruin the mystery of the Neverborn, to be able to pull it of convincingly.

Consider it like this: We can assume that Lucius is human, which tells us a lot of things about him, needs (food, water, air etc), urges (all humans share certain urges, not all of them sexual) and the like. We know that Lilith is a Nephilim, but what does she need? want? or have the urge to? What motivates a nephilim?

See the difference?

Wait... not all of my urges are supposed to be sexual?

Guys, I think I'm a Neverborn!!!

Seriously though, you bring up good points. Usually I would be right with you on this, but I think that Malifaux has already set up the fluff in a pretty unique way. A huge chunk of the books are told from the perspective of otherwise alien characters. You get to see the world through the eyes of Molly, Pandora, Zoraida, Lilith, a witchling, etc. Those are (non)people that normally I couldn't identify with, but it seems the writers really want to put you into their shoes.

I don't think that you're at all wrong, but I think this setting is uniquely suited for letting you play "the dragon" so to speak.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Red Morgan

[nilus]

Systems I think you should look at to compare:

• Deadlands
  
• Feng Shui
  
• CthulhuTech
  
• World of Darkness
  
• All Flesh Must be Eaten

Why are you in my basement, reading my RPG book shelf

Although I would say look more at Savage Worlds then Deadlands. Ironally enough Savage Worlds is based off the Great Rail Wars which was a mini game, but it translates into a pretty easy play, rules lite system.

Original Deadlands still holds a place in my heart but after running a Hell on Earth Campaign for 6 years, the clunkiness of the system is all I see anymore.

[nifoc]

While not a huge fan of SW, prefer FATE, I agree with everything else said by CRC. Possibly excepting the systems.

Feng Shui was ok, but not something that inspires me as a great system, but it's fun.

Deadlands depends, the first one, with the multiple different dices and cards was a mess, the SW one is ok.

Cthulhutech; IIRC basic percentile dice, inherited a lot from Runequest, works fine but nothing new and exciting.

WoD; simplistic system but no huge complaints from me.

AFMbE; se above.

Fantasy flight has done some interesting things RPG-wise (not including the 40k-games as the system was inherited from BI), both Warhammer RPG 3ed and the new Star Wars game are very interesting mechanics-wise.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I find myself agreeing with CRC. I just want to add that the Fate Deck, while nice and iconic to the Malifaux, should not be too heavily involved in the game's task resolution.

[Gruesome]

On the one hand I understand and agree with Gruesomes sentiments. Revealing too much about the Neverborn, their psyche and social habits, i.e. making them playable, does remove the feeling of the Unknown from them. However I normally argue that one should BE ABLE to play anything, even one of the Tyrants without it breaking the system. That does not make everything, very much including the Tyrans in this one, suited for most playing groups. Some parts of the Neverborn (Silurids, Nephilim) might be an idea to include, but Nightmares and such become way too abstract IMO.

That feels like a rather arbitrary line to draw for what you can play and what you cannot.

For me, if other races are playable, not sure I'd be interested in playing. To be able to take any faction is what Malifaux is for me.

For an RPG, I want to dungeon crawl and explore and be afraid of the unknown. Making non-human things playable takes much of that away for me.

I am not making a judgement on what is good or bad, just saying what would make me not pick up the game.

May as well let me play a dragon alongside my drow, vampire and Githyanki "friends" while we get a drink at the bar and pretend like anything could ever be scary or mysterious to us.

[Sliver Chocobo]

There is IMO a huge difference between playing a human with strange ideas, and playing something whose brain does not process information in the way that humans do. Not saying that it is impossible to do, much like one can pretend to play someone suffering from a psychiatric maladie, just that it requires a lot of information on their society, information that might ruin the mystery of the Neverborn, to be able to pull it of convincingly.

Consider it like this: We can assume that Lucius is human, which tells us a lot of things about him, needs (food, water, air etc), urges (all humans share certain urges, not all of them sexual) and the like. We know that Lilith is a Nephilim, but what does she need? want? or have the urge to? What motivates a nephilim?

See the difference?

Read book 3 (perdita's fluff) Nehilim have the same needs as humans

Also human can be turn ed Nephilim and at lest 3 of the Neverborn masters are human

[Dracomax]

Well, I partially disagree with CRC about levels, and totally disagree with 2e/AD&D being only a step away from a miniatures game(I have never played it with miniatures, nor felt a need to)

But a Savage worlds/FATE hybrid would actually be about where I would want it. I think actually I want them to keep the FAte deck in--one of the things that excites me the most about the idea of a Mali- RPG is the idea of suit triggers on skills, spells, and actions. How cool would it be to be in the middle of a complex negotiation and trigger hypnotic voice?

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

I agree, but then again I tell my players to create a group, not just a random bunch of individuals, and make sure that their characters have reasons to cooperate as I have no intention of getting a headache doing that for them while they have a shootout. That doesn't preclude us from playing out them meeting for the first time, just that we all know that's what's going to happen. I have discovered it prevents a lot of unnecessary problems if I just tell them to handle it themselves.

This happens in theory. Then again, every game I've ever been in with more than two players, there is a disagreement on what they want to play, and I honestly think it would be easier to herd cats than convince a player who wants to play a gremlin that they need to play nice with the player who wants to be an ortega scion.

[nilus]

I find myself agreeing with CRC. I just want to add that the Fate Deck, while nice and iconic to the Malifaux, should not be too heavily involved in the game's task resolution.

I disagree Although I have played enough card based systems to see why a lot of people are gun shy about them. I just think that Malifaux was built on being card driven, so I think the RPG can be too.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I disagree Although I have played enough card based systems to see why a lot of people are gun shy about them. I just think that Malifaux was built on being card driven, so I think the RPG can be too.

The skirmish game was. The RPG can be built to whatever specifications it needs to be, and since no one had any good suggestions on how to get over the obstacles last time this was brought up, I have my doubts about cards-as-resolution.

[Kuro]

Cards are just another form of randomization-- no different than dice or rock-paper-scissors or whatever weird mechanic you might use to simulate predictability. Since there is already a fate deck mechanic in the skirmish game, I don't see an issue at all with using it in the RPG. Not only that, but it's very thematic to the setting. I wholeheartedly support the fate deck for this game.