CaptainAsh Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Hi there i was just wanting to clarify that steam pucnk abominations and desolation engines can turn rats into spa's. i have read both rules and cannot agree on which takes presidence. as the trigger of the spa's and de is that when the enemy is killed it does not drop a counter but instead place a spa in base contact with model. but at the same time rats can be re-summoned instantly if with in 6 inch of rat catcher so i was wondering weither i can get spa's while hamlin and his rats can have his rat back. I know rats have a thing to stop things being summoned from them but this trigger is not summoning something it is transforming the rat to an spa so i thought it would get round this rat problem. Need help sorting out coz it may help me win or lose against hamlin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshimartian Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I would say no. The ability says "instead of dropping a corpse counter" which makes it a replacement effect, however, rats never drop corpse counters, so you can't do something ' instead of' doing nothing. But that's my take on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 You can't get an SPA from killing a rat within range of a Voracious Rats aura. The easy solution is to target rats outside of that aura, or better still to target the Ratcatcher generating the aura and remove the problem entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshimartian Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 You can't get an SPA from killing a rat within range of a Voracious Rats aura. The easy solution is to target rats outside of that aura, or better still to target the Ratcatcher generating the aura and remove the problem entirely. It has nothing to do with Voracious Rats. The Malifaux Rats themselves have an ability "Devoured: This model generates no counters when killed, instead, heal all friendly vermin within 2" 2wd" May not be exact on the distance, but definitely on the ability. Since the Rats never generate corpses, they can't do something which would be "instead of" generating corpse counters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judgeman Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Best way to get rid of the rats with Leveticus is to use Entropic Transformation on them. This will sacrifice the rat, thus no other rats will be summoned and you can get a waif if you are in need of one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme27uk Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Best way to get rid of the rats with Leveticus is to use Entropic Transformation on them. This will sacrifice the rat, thus no other rats will be summoned and you can get a waif if you are in need of one. This +1. Rats don't generate anything else, other than other rats if within VR aura. No SPA's, no corpse counters, no nothing. Sacrificing them is the only way of stopping them coming back which is why they don't make the best options for Hamelin to sacrifice for his spells/abilities. Just means against Leveticus, the inevitable swarm of rats is rather less inevitable..... and vice versa for the SPA's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 It has nothing to do with Voracious Rats. The Malifaux Rats themselves have an ability "Devoured: This model generates no counters when killed, instead, heal all friendly vermin within 2" 2wd" May not be exact on the distance, but definitely on the ability. Since the Rats never generate corpses, they can't do something which would be "instead of" generating corpse counters. That's a trickier one. Voracious Rats explicitly prevents the summoning of other models "When this model or a model within 6" of it is killed, Summon one Malifaux Rat in base contact with the model before it is removed from play. The model does not generate Counters of any kind. No other models can be summoned as a result of the model being killed." Which is the point I was thinking of. Whether the specific Devoured ability negates the ability to summon an SPA is another matter. Given that Voracious Rats is explicit on this point and Devoured is not, I'd be inclined to allow an SPA outside of the aura on the grounds that several things can occur as alternatives to dropping a counter if they aren't mutually exclusive. So nearby vermin could heal and an SPA could still be summoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonook Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 It's the full stop in the description of the trigger that sells it for me. Please note I don't have my book 1 so am running purely off of the DE's v2 card on the .pdf, but Leveticus has the same stipulation for Necrotic Unmaking. It doesn't say instead of generating a corpse counter summon an SPA, it says "...does not generate counters of any kind. Summon one SPA..." They're two separate entities in the description, separate steps to resolve. Since it doesn't even stipulate a living or undead model for either the trigger or Levi's spell, I'd say you can even summon an SPA from a spirit, who already don't drop counters of any kind. Devoured would not matter in this case, as both abilities line up in the lack of generation of a counter, but voracious rats would negate the summon explicitly though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 The Corpse Counter dropping has nothing to do with it. The line that matters is the one in Voracious rats where its says "No other models may be summoned as a result of this model being killed". Necroctic unmaking kills it, so no SPA. However, Entropic Transformation sacrifices the rat, so that spell would make an SPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Ravenborne has how I've always played it. Sacrifice those ratties! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judgeman Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 The Corpse Counter dropping has nothing to do with it. The line that matters is the one in Voracious rats where its says "No other models may be summoned as a result of this model being killed". Necroctic unmaking kills it, so no SPA. However, Entropic Transformation sacrifices the rat, so that spell would make an SPA. That is not correct. Entropic Transformation can only summon a Hollow Waif from sacrificing a rat since the rat is living. You only get an SPA if you sacrifice a construct or a scrap counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Excuse me....you are correct. I meant to just say you can summon from the spell, its just a Hollow Waif not an SPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 The Corpse Counter dropping has nothing to do with it. The line that matters is the one in Voracious rats where its says "No other models may be summoned as a result of this model being killed". You've not been following the conversation. No one is disputing how Voracious Rats works, the question is whether the Devoured ability also prevents Levi from summoning a SPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Trevelyan, it doesn't Levi doesn't care for Necrotic Unmaking just what the opponent would or would not drop, it just drops nothing and leaves some recycled material (the SPA) Still I prefer to Necro Sacrifice, walk again, Blast the ratcatcher with 2 spells, and a-explode the rats for good measure, byebye swarm ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAsh Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 So turning a rat catcher is turned in to an spa the rats are out of the aura so i then can change them into spas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Not really, because Voracious Rats will also turn the catcher into a rat. Rats however have 2 Wds and no armor or similar, putting them in Wdrange to blast them out with (0)Desolation, result, a whole wiped swarm, which is worth far more then a couple of SPA's (because he'd be able to recreate a new Catcher next activation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAsh Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 are rats classed as living models then i just want to turn into rats into spas so ican keep refreshing as i know how they can over run anybdoy no matter how good they are ---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ---------- not really as by the time the next turn comes they all have to take df 10 duels or loose two wds but if ashes and dust is behind the it is a 4 inch aura that makes them take def 12 duels so if the rat catcher gone they will all die anyway thats why i wanted to know if i can turn them with spa desolation warping trigger or with levis necrotic unmaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 You can, as long as they're not within 6" of either Hamelin, the Plagued, or a Ratcatcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAsh Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 right so plan is splat hamlin and rat catchers with alice and levi and then use spas and desolation engine to kill rats and make more so i can make advantage of ashes and dust auras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Trevelyan, it doesn't Yes, we concluded that on the previous page several days ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 right so plan is splat hamlin and rat catchers with alice and levi and then use spas and desolation engine to kill rats and make more so i can make advantage of ashes and dust auras Problem with that is simple, if Levi blasts Ratcatchers/Hamelin away, one of the rats will just form a new catcher with 2 others before Ashes or DE/SPA get a shot at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Problem with that is simple, if Levi blasts Ratcatchers/Hamelin away, one of the rats will just form a new catcher with 2 others before Ashes or DE/SPA get a shot at it Depends on the activation sequence. If the rats have already all acted (together, thanks to Writhing Mass) and you take out the 'Catcher before he gets to Kill All Rats then it shouldn't be a problem. Having a SPA or two around in the end phase should see most of the remaining rats killed off thanks to the SPA aura anyway. Worth noting that, Blessings of Desolation aside, Ashes & Dust is better at turning rats into SPAs than the Desolation Engine. If the rats haven't activated then a safer solution might be to wipe out the 'Catcher with Levi then move in and kill the swarm with Desolation. Better that he have no rats than that he have some rats and you have some SPAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAsh Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 i was close last night at pulling off the tricks i been thinking but the damn rat catcher has armour if within 3 inch but i think the guy was slightly cheating with his measurements but even with that i only lost 6-5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 i was close last night at pulling off the tricks i been thinking but the damn rat catcher has armour if within 3 inch but i think the guy was slightly cheating with his measurements but even with that i only lost 6-5 IIRC the 'Catcher has armour +2 if within 2" of at least two rats. If the other guy was going for some questionable 3" measurements then you've got grounds for complaint. Also worth noting that, if you were using Levi to hit the 'Catcher, most of his spells inflict Wound damage so armour doesn't apply. A 'Catcher will drop in two hits from Levi regardless of how many rats he has around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAsh Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 no iwasnt using levi my spas where trying to get him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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