Chain Spear - Drag Trigger

[Kriltic]

A second question from my game today. Essentially the question is, does the drag effect apply even if the damage from the shot is enough to kill a model? And would this drag effect apply before the model is removed as a casualty?

The wording is as follows 'After damaging a defender with a Chain Spear Strike, push defender 4" directly towards this model.' So would this effectively allow me to pull a dead model towards me (before its actually removed) and by doing so, move the possible location of where models drop scrap/flesh counters. Or even dragging models out of certain ranges (such as Hamelin's range for bringing back rats) or into range of other effects?

[mpangelu]

I'd say it is after damaging (and therefore before damage is translated into wds) so therefore the model is dragged before finally perspiring. This is how I read it however.

[Kriltic]

Again thanks for the reply, I hope others agree as I can't find a rule to support it either way (it just seems wrong that I don't gain the trigger). My opponent wasn't happy as I was dragging his Rats out of his Rat Catchers range to bring them back, I figured dragging them away was my only hope of getting through some of them.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I believe the answer is yes -- after the damage and before the death.

http://www.malifaux.com/Errata.php

1. Total the Damage being inflicted.

c. Then, any Triggers which occur when damage is inflicted occur now.

...

5. The model suffers any wounds remaining.

b. Then, if the model has been reduced to 0 Wounds check to see if it is Killed.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[mpangelu]

I don't have my rules manual in front of me, but just evaluate the process of damage and how it works. Its the same reason that spells that do wounds and not damage ignore the effects of Armor. Its just a process.

You aren't always guaranteed your triggers (even when getting them will get used). I had an instance where I trigger happied a Somer Avatar and he was able to use his trigger to summon a gremlin in melee range of my shooter, meaning I lost the trigger happy shot. I still got my trigger, just my new shot was invalidated.

[Turbodog]

In the past, I asked a similar question regarding a peacekeeper hitting a model in melee with the toss trigger. I was told by a rules marshall that the model instantly dropped its counter there and the toss trigger did not occur. The wording "after damaging" seemed to be applied as "after doing the entire damage resolution process". Therefore the model is removed prior to the "after damaging" timing.

So, in essence, I couldn't control where counters were showing up with an "after damaging" trigger.

[mpangelu]

In this case your comparing apples to oranges. The Toss trigger from Peacekeeper actually goes off of wounds inflicted. This is when damaged do such and such. Hence the difference.

Edited July 18, 2012 by mpangelu

[Kriltic]

Ah well its nice to know I did have the right idea then haha It certainly seems like I could be putting the Drag trigger to good use then vs some of my more regular opponents.

[GrAYFoX]

Here's the problem though. It all hinges on what "after damaging" now/still means. Previously, this meant the damage resolution process, so it would occur at step 6. in the errata damage process.

In the FAQ "damage inflicted" is a specific phrase found on abilities like Seamus' Live for Pain. Notice that both are not using the keyword Damage (capital) or Dg.

Edited July 18, 2012 by GrAYFoX
Clarification

[Turbodog]

In this case your comparing apples to oranges. The Toss trigger from Peacekeeper actually goes off of wounds inflicted. This is when damaged do such and such. Hence the difference.

Turbodog's Response: "Huh?"

Peacekeeper v2 card:

Toss: "After damaging defender with a paired mechanical claws strike, push...." blah blah blah

Drag: "After damaging defender with a chain spear strike, push..."blah blah blah

I only see apples here.

And as such, still think that (contrary to logic) "after damaging" must occur after the entire damage resolution process.

[dgraz]

How far in the past are we talking here? The new errata / faq cleared up some timing issues.

Edit: Tedpro actually referenced the specific sequence in his post above.

[Turbodog]

How far in the past are we talking here? The new errata / faq cleared up some timing issues.

Edit: Tedpro actually referenced the specific sequence in his post above.

"in the past was just before the FAQ/Erratas ... April maybe?"

Looking more closely, I think GrayFox has it. The "after damaging" effects occur in step 6 of the updated document.

[dgraz]

"in the past was just before the FAQ/Erratas ... April maybe?"

Looking more closely, I think GrayFox has it. The "after damaging" effects occur in step 6 of the updated document.

After closer inspection I think I jumped the gun...........I too believe GrayFox has it now.

[mpangelu]

Turbodog's Response: "Huh?"

Peacekeeper v2 card:

Toss: "After damaging defender with a paired mechanical claws strike, push...." blah blah blah

Drag: "After damaging defender with a chain spear strike, push..."blah blah blah

I only see apples here.

And as such, still think that (contrary to logic) "after damaging" must occur after the entire damage resolution process.

This is taken from the v2 guild pdf

Toss: After damaging defender with a Paired

Mechanical Claws Strike, push defender 1” per wound

inflicted, ignoring intervening models and terrain....

... per wound inflicted. Damage must be inflicted, after damage is inflicted push it #inches per wound, if it suffered more wounds then it had there is nothing to push.

[Hollaback]

Bear with me on this, unless I am reading the errata wrong about the timing sequence, with drag it seems that the trigger happens just before the death. So you would get the pull. I looked at both my V2 Peacekeeper card and my Mechanical Rider card. Both models have a chain spear with the same drag trigger, though the wording on the triggers differs slightly, both seem to have the same intent.

Peacekeeper: Drag (:rams)After damaging defender with a chain spear strike, push the defender 4" directly towards this model.

Mechanical Rider: Drag (:rams)After this weapon inflicts damage on the target, push target 4" directly towards this model.

Both drag triggers say that they happen AFTER damaging.

Now look at part 5 of the timing sequence:

Part 5, section a, subsection i states:

Any Triggers which occur after inflicting one or more damage/wounds occur now.

Part 5, section b, subsection iii states:

Finally, if the model now has more than 0 Wounds remaining it remains on the table and is not Killed. If it has 0 Wounds remaining it is Killed.

Unlike what TedPro said, it does not occur WHEN damaging (Part 1 section c), but AFTER inflicting damage (Part 5, section a, subsection i), which would still be before the target is killed (Part 5, section b, subsection iii). I do admit that the wording on the V2 peacekeeper card is somewhat vague and could be interpreted as falling under part 6, it is the Mechanical Riders wording that specifically states after inflicting damage, which pops its place back into part 5-a-i. Despite there being no errata for the the trigger which i can find, the peacekeeper's and the rider's trigger have the same name, suit requirement and effect, the difference in wording seems to be just to clarify where in the sequence it falls. As the rider is signifigantlly newer that the peacekkepers v2, it makes sense that its wording is the most current

Edited July 20, 2012 by Hollaback

[mpangelu]

Toss would be an example of one that wouldn't happen if model suffered more wounds then had.

[Mournafein]

To simplify things: Yes, before the model truly dies, they get dragged and THEN may die... (I believe this is the case for purpose of counters, slow to die, and potential placement/Summon, and range purposes.)

Edit: I could be wrong, but it says after damaging... So basically to make it easier you can just add a sub-step in the wounding process to apply that trigger IMMEDIATELY after damaging... Meaning before abilities and triggers that mitigate wounds... So after damaging, but before wounding and killing- drag the model, then off it.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Mournafein
Missed some info