dgraz Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) Please ignore this post. Some people seem to think I have some kind of hidden agenda so I created a new thread here; http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33231-The-less-biased-Great-Joker-Debate Edited July 11, 2012 by dgraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would argue the poll isn't worded in the best way. I don't argue it needs immediate revision. I personally would like something to be implemented so that H2W doesn't sometimes come out as a negative due to the red joker, in the way armor, spirit, or a high df don't become negatives due to the mechanics of the game, although they can become negatives based on other models. So while overall my opinion is the jokers in essence are fine I really don't like how they interact with H2W, but that is purely a personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 So while overall my opinion is the jokers in essence are fine I really don't like how they interact with H2W, but that is purely a personal opinion. It's a valid opinion and I'm glad you added it here. I'm not sure that I agree with you or not, but I can certainly see the point....as some have said....that one of the great Rezzer strengths sometimes becomes a liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would also point out, per the old laws of the Wyrd Forums. The poll is missing both a baby and a chainsaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I don't think that either of those answers is what I could choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I don't think that either of those answers is what I could choose.Well then speak and be heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 If I were to word the question on the opposite end of the spectrum, I could easily have asked it as: "Would removing the extra flip or making it always weak on damage when there is a negative twist destroy your ability to enjoy Malifaux?" Yes No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bashamer Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 more options & a less rigged wording of the question would give a more nuanced picture. Right now it looks like -OMG THIS THING AMEKS ME RAGEQUIT THIS GAME AND MICROWAVE MY MINIS!!!! and -whatever. And well, I'm in the whatever camp; don't care that much; is not on the top of any list. Could it use tweaking; probably. But it is not immediately, and it is not deserving 3x! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MudgeBlack Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Personally I love it when the Red comes up on a negative twist or when the Black comes up on a positive twist, whether I am on the giving or receiving end of it. It is just the freak twists of fate that are a big part of the make up of Malifaux in my opinion. Its just that "there's always a chance" to either snatch victory from the jaws of defeat or defeat from the jaws of victory, that reminds us to always be on our toes when treading in Malifaux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Exactly mudge. I've won games by cheating my df down to give my opponent a positive twist and watching black joker come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 It is hard for me to imagine a possible world in which, if Wyrd had not originally had the extra damage flip on negative flips, that some group of people would have, all along, been clamoring to have that changed. And yes, philosophy buffs, I realize that there is a "possible world" in which that can be, as its not a necessary thing that it not be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonti Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 While I'm 100% in the "Jokers are just fine" camp, this poll's wording is so one-sided that the result will yield nothing serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malovane Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 There are several different polls that could be done. 1. Does joker mechanic need immediate revision? 2. Does joker mechanic need revision ever? 3. In what way would you like to see the joker mechanic revised? This poll is effectively #1. Its a simple yes or no. Does the joker mechanic as it stands impede your enjoyment to the point where you want an immediate change or is the joker mechanic enjoyable enough as written to stand as is for the time being? We could certainly get a broader picture with #3, but this thread seems to want to avoid going back into the lengthy 30 page debate in favor of a quick and focused poll gauging immediate necessity of a change. In that regard, its spot on. Speaking in a broader sense of #3, the common responses seem to be: no change, rj is just severe, rj is severe + weak, rj functions differently on negative flip. Perhaps another poll is warranted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 but this thread seems to want to avoid going back into the lengthy 30 page debate in favor of a quick and focused poll gauging immediate necessity of a change. In that regard, its spot on. Thanks Malovane. I have no hidden agenda here. I'm not being one-sided. Yes it needs change, No it doesn't. We can figure out the how later if necessary but let Democracy say whether it is necessary at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Those results... pretty interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) There are several different polls that could be done. 1. Does joker mechanic need immediate revision? 2. Does joker mechanic need revision ever? 3. In what way would you like to see the joker mechanic revised? This poll is effectively #1. Its a simple yes or no. Does the joker mechanic as it stands impede your enjoyment to the point where you want an immediate change or is the joker mechanic enjoyable enough as written to stand as is for the time being? If it were a simple Yes or no, those would have been the answer options. Revisions of the schemes and strats seem like an important topic lately. Would anyone answer "Yes! That thing ruins my games!! Change them immediately!!" for strats and schemes? Is there ANYTHING in the game that people would argue must be IMMEDIATELY changed because it is destroying all enjoyment to play (ie. "ruining")? It is an impossibly big stretch to pretend like that poll is anything other than un-veiled bias pretending to be information gathering. Edited July 11, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) It is an impossibly big stretch to pretend like that poll is anything other than un-veiled bias pretending to be information gathering. Thanks. I love personal attacks like this. It's such a good thing that you know me so well. Edit: Anyway, since some people seem to think I have some kind of hidden agenda here....please go vote in this new thread that may be less biased. http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33231-The-less-biased-Great-Joker-Debate Edited July 11, 2012 by dgraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thanks. I love personal attacks like this. It's such a good thing that you know me so well. Personal attack... lol... How about this... I help design cognitive and personality tests and surveys for a living. Every word about your poll I said is true. It exhibits complete bias and uses its distractors to lead respondents in one direction. If you want to take that question and my assessment of it as an indictment of you, then whatever floats your boat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malovane Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Is there ANYTHING in the game that people would argue must be IMMEDIATELY changed because it is destroying all enjoyment to play (ie. "ruining")? I think it will vary from person to person. Certainly the use of "all" enjoyment is extreme, but there are definitely areas that I would feel need more immediate attention than others. Hamlin, scheme/strat balance, maybe Von Schill's point cost. So for me personally, I have to say yes, there are things in this game that I would say warrant immediate attention. Which is of course a bit of a distinction from immediate change in that I'd rather have wyrd take their time with changes to make them "right" instead of rushed. Immediate attention specifically that those are the areas I believe wyrd and the community should be focused on. Joker mechanics being an area that I believe does not require immediate attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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