Zoraida question

[Lamo]

I was using the crew creator and was wondering why if I took Von Schill with zoraida I can't take desperate mercenaries (desperate mercs are wp4 so I wouldn't have to take them as mercenaries anyway right?)

Thanks in advance

[bashamer]

Von Schill has a rule limiting non feikorps mercenaries if he is a mercenary.

[Lamo]

The thing is von schill's rule is

" If a freekorps model is hired as a mercenary, no other models can be hired as a mercenary unless they have the freekorps characteristic"

From what I can tell wouldn't I be able to take desperate mercs as minions instead of mercenaries since they fit under Zoraida's enthrall rule (especially since every other model that is hired under this special characteristic is listed under minion)

Sorry if I'm just not getting it I'm pretty new to the game.

Thanks

Edited June 27, 2012 by Lamo

[bashamer]

cannot tends to override can.

[Saint Norton]

I actually tend to agree with the OP on this one.

VonSchill says that no non-Freicorps mercs can be hired using the mercenary rules. But Zoraida has an ability of her own that allows them to be hired not using those mercenary rules.

By my reading this should be allowed.

[DeusInnomen]

Bashamer had the right of it. "Cannot" overrides "Can".

For reference, see page 7 in the Rules Manual under "Breaking the Rules":

When the rules on two models directly contradict each other, a rule that says can overrides may, and a rule that says cannot will override can.

Hope that helps!

[Lamo]

See the issue with the can can not thing is that Von schill says can not as a mercenary. But zoraida's effect says you can hire them in general and thus you bypass the need to even consider purchasing them through the mercenary rule. Evedince is further shown considering every other modle she is allowed to purchase due to this rule is considered a minion and thus similarly the desperate Mercs should follow suit... Normally this wouldn't matter enough to me to discuss about it but I think Von schills with a few mercs is super sexy

Edited June 27, 2012 by Lamo

[Adran]

I would agree with Saint Norton, You can not hire the Desperate Mercs as a mercenary, but they can still be hired by entrall.

I would imagine that this is one of the instances that the Crew creator logic engine can't quite cope with the intricacies of Malifaux.

[Lamo]

Considering I'm right that you can take them..... Does that mean Von shills rule allowing any number of mercenary models actually mean I can take more that one desperate Merc (going off the rule that says you can't have more than two models out of faction with the mercenary characteristic [im guessing that rule would be applied regardless of how you hire them]) all these rules are hurting my head...

[Alex]

Last time this came up, I believe ruling was that Mercenary rule takes precedence over Thrall & it doesn't "know" that it wasn't hired as a Mercenary. Not sure of the logic, as your logic makes more sense to me, but AKAIK that is why the "as a [Mercenary]" clause on VS is irrelevant.

[Lamo]

Last thing I'm going to include in this discussion is the only ristriction I could find pertaining to their purchase.

"A crew may only include models pertaining to the players chosen faction, modles with the mercenary characteristic, and modles permitted to join the crew through any other special hiring rules. Modles hired by a specific crew must meet all specific hiring restrictions or they can not be hired."

So from that it seems like it doesn't meet quality 1 and 2(because of von schill). But does meet the third possible requirement.

Is their any way I can get a more precise answer as it seems people are split on this?

I come from the GW universe and hate getting stuff wrong (though in those games it takes FOREVER to get any kind of errata)

[LordZombie]

To me, it looks like entrall only gives a hiring bonus. This would let you hire outside of faction. Hiring Von Schill would put the special forces rule into effect, so you could only take special forces after that. On his card, Von Schill as a leader can negate the two merc rule, but not as a henchmen. The way I read it (all the rules together) you take Von Schill, you can take any number of freikorps as special forces/mercs but still get your entrall to hire other models. So no desp mercs as they are not freikorps.

[Lamo]

the main thing for me is just that hiring as a mercenary is only one of three ways of bringing a model along acording to the general rule I brought up. It seems acording to the general special force rules you can still have mercenary modles but can only have one special force per crew(in scraps). I'm kind of enjoying reading into these rules haha. II think its really gona be determinined on the wording of Von schill's card wording... well see.

[EnternalVoid]

Alex has the blunt of it, just cause she can hire them under entrall does not remove their mercenary rules. Her entrall is a special hiring option, but models she hires still retain their special forces, original faction, and the rules that go with them. If you hire a nurse it is still a resser model even though it is in a Neverborn list, just as a mercenary is still a mercenary even if it is hired into a different list.

If they produced beast mercenary models, Marcus can still only hire two unless the model itself had a special rule around it *or they altered Marcus's rules*.

So Zoraida can hire five models out of ressers or Arcanist, but she is still limited by the merc rules as Entrall does not actually give an out around that limiting rule.