Marcus Alpha and Reactivate timing

[baskinders]

Marcus' Alpha spell allows him to "immediately activate an enemy beast, or it recieves Reactivates if it has already activated..."

Is the Reactivate resolved immediately like the activate option, or does Marcus then wait to Reactivate the model in the normal turn sequence like one of his friendly models?

[Marcalla]

It happens immediately, the reason (an already activated) the model gains re-activate is that normally a model may not activate more than once per turn.

[Q'iq'el]

It happens immediately, the reason (an already activated) the model gains re-activate is that normally a model may not activate more than once per turn.

Not sure I understand your answer exactly, but no model can go twice in a row unless there's some explicit permission. Reactivate gives the model a second activation, but it must follow normal activation order. Only if your opponent has no more models to activate you can go immediately with the Reactivate.

[Marcalla]

Not sure I understand your answer exactly' date=' but no model can go twice in a row unless there's some explicit permission. Reactivate gives the model a second activation, but it must follow normal activation order. Only if your opponent has no more models to activate you can go immediately with the Reactivate.[/quote']

My answer is in response to the question above. The model that is being re-activated isn't going twice in a row. It is being "Alpha'd" via Markus' spell. The spell in question activates a model (beast) immediately. I based My explanation on what I know of from override edict which works the same way only for constructs. Though on a closer look at alpha the wording is slightly different. My interpretation is based on the fact that the model is activating immediately and the reason it gains reactivate is to facilitate that action within the rules.

[Koali]

unless there's some explicit permission.

Yes and there is a permission....

It is, that Apha says it activates/reactivates immediatly!

So no other Activation between those two!

[Q'iq'el]

Hmm, I may have little experience with Marcus, but the way I see Alpha's wording it does two things:

1. If the model hasn't activated yet, it activates immediately.

2. If it has already activated, it receives reactivate.

Reactivate is merely an effect which allows for another activation. If I understand correctly, you cannot execute it "immediately", because a) that part applies only to the first case; even if it did applied to the second case, immediate application of reactivation is exactly what happens anyway and it doesn't influence when the reactivation is being used.

The way I understand it, Alpha can be used on opponent models that haven't activated yet to "steal" their activation, or it can be used on own models that have already activated to give them reactivate. Arguably, you can control the reactivating opponent model too, but the wording there is not 100% clear to me (probably just me).

Either way, I don't see why normal reactivate rules wouldn't apply. Even if you control the model for its reactivation, I'm not sure you get to decide when that model reactivates either.

[Oscilioth]

Alpha can't be used on friendly beasts, so that's not a possible use for it.

I guess you could argue the Reactivate happens in normal turn sequence, but it seems a bit off to me.

[Marcalla]

Alpha can only be used on enemy beast models. It say's so in the spell description. Further it say's that the target may not activate again this turn. If it doesn't activate immediately it could never activate during the turn.

The only reason that it gains reactivate is to satisfy the rule that a model may not activate twice in a turn. The model still activates immediately, but if it had already activated this turn it gains reactivate so that it may immediately activate without breaking the game rules for how many times a model may activate during a turn.

The caster of Alpha controls the model for the activation, this is also explicitly noted in the spell description.

[baskinders]

The way I understand it, Alpha can be used on opponent models that haven't activated yet to "steal" their activation, or it can be used on own models that have already activated to give them reactivate. Arguably, you can control the reactivating opponent model too, but the wording there is not 100% clear to me (probably just me).

Either way, I don't see why normal reactivate rules wouldn't apply. Even if you control the model for its reactivation, I'm not sure you get to decide when that model reactivates either.

Yeah Oscilioth is right, you can only use Alpha on enemy beasts, so that's the confusing part for me is, if the Reactivate does not happen immediately then what occurs from there? Obviously Marcus would get to control the model when it performs the Reactivate, as that's what the rule says, however who gets to nominate when it performs the Reactivate and as part of which crew? Because if it is an enemy model to Marcus until it Reactivates, then you'd assume Marcus' opponent would choose when it Reactivates and it would activate when an enemy model could normally, but as soon as it activates Marcus takes over and does the activation. Other option is that from the time the model gets Alpha'd they count as friendly to Marcus and his controller decides when to Reactivate at a time when a friendly model normally could.

My feeling though is it is intended that the Reactivation happens immediately, which is much simpler and less confusing. Maybe just a badly constructed sentence for the rule?

[Adran]

I would argue that the reactivation if required also occurs immedeatly.

The spell is only cast on enemy models. And You control the activation of the model.

If the spell just allowed you to control the model next time it activates then who controls it until then? and whose activation sequence does it go in?

I know that the wording isn't explicit but the simplest solution is that the reactivation occurs now, just as the activation would if it hadn't already activated.

(prehaps it should be changed to saying "the model activates immedeatly, recieveing reactivate if it has already activated")

[Marcalla]

The wording should probably be brought into line with the Override Edict wording (changing construct to beast of course)

I think both spells are meant to do the same thing only on the correct type of model, and Override Edict is much clearer on how to go about it.