Zoraida vs Pandora

[graeme27uk]

Any general tips on how I can use Zoraida to beat Pandora? All of Z's crew seem low WP and so prone to death from Pandora.....

Do I enlist as much ranged attack as I can? Convict Gunslinger, Desperate Mercenaries, Gunsmiths.... etc.

[Korrosion]

Hooded Rider maybe? Von Norris?

[Alex]

Gunsmiths are good as they can use Smoldering Heart to enhance Wp and also ready them to go The Hard Way for positive flips. Beyond that, maybe avoid hiring with Thrall against Pandora, & take a bunch of high Wp models to beat her at her own game. Bad Juju mudslide and Tuco shotty blast seem good too. Pandora even helps you Obey your Juju!

Note that I am the Bad Malifauxer, not a good one, and none of these theories are fully tested. But, these are my initial thoughts, so take 'em for what they are worth!

[FoolWithTheFez]

Jack Daw and some Hanged can screw with Pandy pretty well.

[TranquilitiesEnd]

I thoroughly beat Pandora in a 35 pt game the other day using the following list-

-stiched together x2

-von schill

-freikorps specialist

-papa loco

The idea behind this list was to use the stiched early to get fog up to protect against Pandora and also lure from lilitu. von schill was for my objective, but did a good job killing some minions, but i never shot at Pandora, he's only got 8wp as a defender.

The specialist and papa loco were my tech tho, to either obey and have papa charge a model near Pandora (not her tho, otherwise she bounces away) and then activate and blow up twice killing her with blasts, or my.other plan was to have a stiched walk up close to her, then pass, and have my specialist shoot the stitched in the back twice (does not die allows the stiched to get shot even when dying) cheat the df low and have the blasts kill Pandora. Specialist also has stubborn, giving him 7wp in duels.

Be very careful to not have papa close to your own models tho, with wp2, he's an easy win if your opponent kills him near your models, keep the fog up in front of him to protect him until its obey time.

Like I said earlier, this strategy allowed me to decimate my local Pandora player. Good luck =D

[*Jack*]

Consider using sue aswell, aura giving your models plus 2 willpower will help

[TranquilitiesEnd]

If you do use sue, do not put up his duty aura, otherwise the models affected can be repeatedly pacify/incited for 1wound every time you lose the duel, because the pacify/incite affect will never affect your model, and that makes them fair game to be targeted again.. and again.. until you win or die.

Also, sadly (and purposely I think) you cannot take sue with Von Schill or the Gunsmiths because of Man in Black ability.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Heartsbane
i was wrong about the Tread the Line ability here, it will actually prevent Pandora from using pacify on your models.

[Joel]

Collodi and a crew of dolls. He boosts their willpower when they are close to him.

Brutal effigy, when close to collodi, is Wp10 when defending! Having stitched at Wp8 is pretty good too.

Tuco, as already mentioned is another nice addition to the crew.

[Twisted Metal]

If you do use sue, do not put up his duty aura, otherwise the models affected can be repeatedly pacify/incited for 1wound every time you lose the duel, because the pacify/incite affect will never affect your model, and that makes them fair game to be targeted again.. and again.. until you win or die.

Unless a RM has stated differently in another thread I don’t think that’s how it works at all. Typically when a model is immune to something it cannot be targeted with it. Take immune to influence for example. You cannot target a model with a spell that has a WP resist if the model is ITI. In this particular case Sue or the models in the Aura cannot be targeted with Incite or Pacify.

[Ozz]

Yea, Sue's aura from the way it is written (got very very slowly explained to me after long arguments about it) means that all models within are immune to incite/pacify and so the spell can not affect them, and any that have already been affected by it, who are within the aura when the spell is cast are no longer affected by the activation restriction

basically he is great against Pandora, as he reduces her movement ability and reduces her death by a thousand cuts effects

[*Jack*]

I dont understand why people think duty negates pacify/incite? o.O

[Ozz]

I dont understand why people think duty negates pacify/incite? o.O

(1) Tread the Line

(CC13: Rst:- / Rg 8 Aura) Friendly models, including this model, gain "Duty: This model's Controller can not be changed."

That is what duty means. No more of the spell.

This next part of the spell is what messes with Pandora.

Friendly models are immune to effects which restrict when they can activate during the turn. These effects on models within the aura when this spell is successfully cast immediately end.

In the second part i have highlighted the full stop as it is important and the part that had me confused.

But basically Incite and pacify affect/control when you can activate a model. So the first sentence of the second block of Tread the Line (not Duty) that i typed stops this from happening. The second line of the second part removes any effects such as incite or pacify that have already been cast on a model if they are within the aura when the spell gets cast.

Hope that explains my reasoning well enough for you?

[TranquilitiesEnd]

Edited my last post to reflect that I was wrong about Tread the Line. So on the matter of beating Pandora, Sue is the best model for it, with +2wp aura and protection from pacify/incite auras.

[Hateful Darkblack]

General tips against Pandora:

Kill her Sorrows and Doppelganger. They are a lot more fragile than she is, and killing them knocks out a lot of Pandora's offensive potential.

Use blasts or area affects to drop her.

Zoraida-specific tips:

Zoraida loves working with Collodi and it's a winning combination against anyone. Collodi's even faster than Pandora.

Have Zoraida attack Pandora directly. Zoraida's got the best Wp in the game. If she manifests, she's not quite as high in WP, but she'll still win pretty often, and be able to kill Pandora with spells.

Hire Misaki as a Mercenary. Misaki is great at killing Pandora with her blast melee attack.

Zoraida loves to Conduit/Obey, which can help against Pandora.

[Keltorian]

So can't Pandora just repeatedly target the models immune to pacify/incite (because they will not be affected) and as long as they keep losing the Wp duel they will keep taking damage?

[nix]

So can't Pandora just repeatedly target the models immune to pacify/incite (because they will not be affected) and as long as they keep losing the Wp duel they will keep taking damage?

If you are immune you never actually take the WP duel. Further, you ignore the actual duel which would cause the initiator of the duel to fail.

Technically Pandora could target one of them but the ability would then "fizzle" and Pandora would not be able to continue with the Incite/Pacify chain.

[Keltorian]

I'm new to this game and that doesn't entirely make sense to me. Aren't the models immune to the effect imposed by Pacify/Incite, rather than being immune to Pacify/Incite.

From what Ozz posted above regarding Tread the Line "Friendly models are immune to effects which restrict when they can activate during the turn. These effects on models within the aura when this spell is successfully cast immediately end."

So is there a rule that states that models immune to the effect of a spell (rather than the spell itself) do not have to take Wp duels against those spells? I am skimming through the rules pdf trying to find something, but I'm a noobie so I am probably overlooking something. In my head this happens:

1. Pandora casts Pacify/Insight on a target model that is immune to effects which restrict when they can activate during the turn.

2. There is an opposed Wp->Wp duel.

3. Assuming Pandora wins and is within 12 inches, the target takes 1 Wd. from Emotional Trauma.

4. The game checks to see if it is legal to apply the spells effect, which it is not.

5. The target is not affected by Pacify/Insight, making it a legal target for an additonal Pacify/Insight attempt.

6. Repeat till target is removed from game or Pandora loses the Wp duel.

Can someone point out where in that sequence of events I am incorrect. I think I may be missing something fundamentally important.

[marful]

Here is what (0) Pacify says:

Target enemy model unaffected by Incite or Pacify within 12" performs a WP->WP Duel with this model. If the target model loses, it must activate after any other model in it's Crew which has not been affected by Pacify. IF this model wins the WP Duel, it may choose to take the Pacify Action again this activation.

So, the (0) Pacify action does three things. 2 of the 3 things the action does are contingent on the first being successful. Thus the first is independent of the 2 subsequent contingent parts of (0) Pacify.

First Part: Forces the target model within 12" to make a WP->WP duel. If Pandora wins this duel then anything that triggers off of winning a duel triggers (Emotional Trauma / Fading Memories). These other talent's of Pandora's that trigger off of winning a WP->WP duel are independent of the "effect" that the (0) Pacify action places on the model.

Second Part: It applies the following effect on the model "The target model...must activate after any other model in it's Crew which has not been affected by Pacify."

Third Part: If the model performing (0) Pacify wins the duel, it may use this action again.

The WP->WP duel happens before any effects are applied, and the effects being applied are contingent upon the WP->WP duel being won. Thus while "Walk the Line" would prevent the effect from being applied as they are immune, it won't stop the duel from taking place, because the duel is independent of the effect.

[Keltorian]

Thats basically how I thought it worked marful, thanks. This should mean that the models can be repeatedly targetted with pacify and killed.

[Korrosion]

Here is what (0) Pacify says:

So, the (0) Pacify action does three things. 2 of the 3 things the action does are contingent on the first being successful. Thus the first is independent of the 2 subsequent contingent parts of (0) Pacify.

First Part: Forces the target model within 12" to make a WP->WP duel. If Pandora wins this duel then anything that triggers off of winning a duel triggers (Emotional Trauma / Fading Memories). These other talent's of Pandora's that trigger off of winning a WP->WP duel are independent of the "effect" that the (0) Pacify action places on the model.

Second Part: It applies the following effect on the model "The target model...must activate after any other model in it's Crew which has not been affected by Pacify."

Third Part: If the model performing (0) Pacify wins the duel, it may use this action again.

The WP->WP duel happens before any effects are applied, and the effects being applied are contingent upon the WP->WP duel being won. Thus while "Walk the Line" would prevent the effect from being applied as they are immune, it won't stop the duel from taking place, because the duel is independent of the effect.

This is my understanding as well. Has there been any input from a RM on this?

[marful]

This is my understanding as well. Has there been any input from a RM on this?

I think a RM ruling would be helpful, as was mentioned previously, Spells or Actions with effects that a model is immune to can't even target said immune model.

An example would be a model with "Immune to Influence" and a low willpower being targeted by a spell that has a WP resist and does a blast (such as Pandora's Project Emotions). Despite the nearby models not being immune, you couldn't even target the Immune model.

Another example is a model that has an immunity from movement effects except on that model's activation being targeted by a spell that pushes them AND does damage. The model couldn't even be targeted by the spell because it is immune to one of the effects (the movement effect), despite not being immune to the damage component.

The problem with (0) Pacify, is the conditional statement: "If the target model loses" that triggers after the failed WP->WP duel.

(0) Pacify does not make the model take a willpower test AND apply its effect. It makes the model take a willpower test. If that is failed by the target model then the model receive the effects.

Which is what makes (0) Pacify a tad different. Another thing that is annoying with (0) Pacify is that the actual effect it applies on the model is never named, but later the action text uses the name of the action itself to define the effect. It needs a bit of clearing up but is not on the top of the to-do stack.