Cheating Fate

[Nazull]

I was reading the cheating fate rules and woundering if u can cheat fate on the attack Flip and on the damage or can u only do it on one of them?

Exampel. if i get a low card on damage the damage flip can i cheat it from my hand with a Red Joker?

if I can do i get another flip for the red joker being played ?

[DeusInnomen]

I was reading the cheating fate rules and woundering if u can cheat fate on the attack Flip and on the damage or can u only do it on one of them?

Exampel. if i get a low card on damage the damage flip can i cheat it from my hand with a Red Joker?

if I can do i get another flip for the red joker being played ?

Each flip is handled separately. You can cheat both as long as their initial flip did not have a . So, if you have on your Attack flip but still managed to get a straight flip or better on the damage flip, you can't cheat the Attack flip but you can cheat the damage flip. Similarly, if you had no penalties to the Attack flip, you may cheat it but if you end up with a negative flip on the damage flip, that flip can't be cheated. If both the Attack and Damage flips have then neither may be cheated.

So, long story short, treat each flip as a separate opportunity to cheat using the normal rules that say you may cheat the flip unless there was a .

And yes, if you're able to cheat the damage flip, you are allowed to cheat in the Red Joker and get the extra flip for damage.

[UberGruber]

My understanding is that both flips may be cheated (unless of course one or both flips have a negative fate modifier or your current card is the black joker).

They're separate flips though the result of the Strike may leave you with a negative fate modifier for the damage flip.

[DeusInnomen]

My understanding is that both flips may be cheated (unless of course one or both flips have a negative fate modifier or your current card is the black joker).

Thanks, that was one detail I forgot to mention. The Black Joker must be used if it's revealed and cannot be cheated, even if the Red Joker shows up too.

[Nazull]

And yes, if you're able to cheat the damage flip, you are allowed to cheat in the Red Joker and get the extra flip for damage.

Cool, can u cheat the 2nd damage card off the Red joker (Damage flip with no negative modifier or a +)

Thank you for the quick replay

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

Thank you to both of you for the quick replay

[DeusInnomen]

Cool, can u cheat the 2nd damage card off the Red joker (Damage flip with no negative modifier or a +)

Thank you for the quick replay

I'm not 100% certain on this response, as I thought it couldn't, but I'm reading the wording on page 45 of the Rules Manual and it says the second flip is also a Damage Flip. That tells that it can, based on the wording of Cheating Fate on page 24. I'll let somebody else step up and clarify that part.

[UberGruber]

Thanks, that was one detail I forgot to mention. The Black Joker must be used if it's revealed and cannot be cheated, even if the Red Joker shows up too.

Well your reply was much more comprehensive (and used those nice negative fate modifier symbols too).

I think the rulebook's layout causes some possible grounds for the confusion Nazull suffered, Damage could almost do with coming immediately after Strike Sequence rather than being separated by Firing into Melee (though I can also see why FiM is where it is, so. . .)

My instinct is that you can Cheat Fate on any eligible Damage Flip (ie one wher eyou have not drawn the black joker and where you have no negative fate modifier, so you could Cheat the second flip triggered by the red joker. Why not?

Edited June 4, 2012 by UberGruber

[Poltron]

You cant cheat the second flip of the Red joker, dont have my rulebook with me, but it goes like this: It's one damage flip, not 2 separate damage flip. All the damage is added as one big hit, so skills/armor only reduces it once, not both results etc.

If you would cheat, you would cheat down on the Red joker instead, not on the extra flip.

Hope it helps!

[UberGruber]

On the damage chart its says under Red Joker:

Severe + another Damage Flip.

That would suggest to me that it is in fact a separate flip and therefore may be cheated unless (which is quite possible) I have overlooked something to the contrary.

[Nazull]

I found on page 23 . Jokers.

The red joker - The Red Joker has a Value of 14 and the suit that its controlling player nominates when it is revealed. In addition, The Red Joker may be used in Duels even when the flip has one or more negative fate modifiers (see p.25) When makeing a Damage flip with the red Joker, it inflicts Severe dameage plus and additional Damage Flip (seep.44)

[DeusInnomen]

Well your reply was much more comprehensive (and used those nice negative fate modifier symbols too).

FYI, those fancy symbols are in the Smiley menu option when posting.

On the damage chart its says under Red Joker:

Severe + another Damage Flip.

That would suggest to me that it is in fact a separate flip and therefore may be cheated unless (which is quite possible) I have overlooked something to the contrary.

The exact wording on page 45 is, "When a Red Joker is flipped for damage, or played while Cheating Fate, it inflicts Severe Damage plus a second Damage Flip's worth of damage." The emphasis is mine.

[UberGruber]

Ah, I have a terrible fear of Smilies so I never thought to look there.

I think your p.45 quote clinches it. It's an additional Flip that may be Cheated as normal (unless it's been errataed, clarified or FAQ's to the contrary somewhere)

[Fetid Strumpet]

You cannot cheat the additional dmg flip from the Red Joker.

Please see this thread and Ratty's comments.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20086-Additional-damage-flips&highlight=Joker+Cheat

[Poltron]

Edit: Nevermind all my rambling below, Fetid found the link Thanks!

Hehe I'm searching everywhere, can't find proofs of my claim. Maybe a case of "everyone's been doing it that way, so no cheat on second flip" syndrome. I've never read a post/blog/battle report either where someone cheated the second damage flip, thus the confusion.

I still think of it as one big flip, since you must add the damage of both flips, so that the real Damage Flip would be the Red Joker, not his additional damage flip. I agree that both are damage flips, however from the FAQ (see below) its seems you can cheat THE damage flip resulting from a duel. In this case, I see it as you cheat down the Red joker (The real Damage flip of this duel), or not at all.

I would love to be proven wrong, since I'm merely stating my opinion as "Rule as Intended", while I cant find anything in the rules to back me up

****

FAQ

When, specifically, am I allowed to Cheat Fate?

You are allowed to Cheat Fate under the following circumstances:

All Duels (when a neutral or positive flip)

The Damage Flip (when a neutral or positive flip)

When a specific rule allows

If the flip was not part of a Duel, nor a Damage Flip, nor is stated as Cheatable, then you cannot Cheat the flip. For example, Healing Flips cannot be Cheated.

***

Edited June 4, 2012 by Poltron

[UberGruber]

Thanks for the link, very useful.

I would, however, say that this from the FAQ as provided by Poltron (emphasis mine):

You are allowed to Cheat Fate under the following circumstances:

All Duels (when a neutral or positive flip)

The Damage Flip (when a neutral or positive flip)

When a specific rule allows

is going to cause confusion because the Red Joker entry on the Damage Table does quite clearly say 'Severe + another Damage Flip' (again my emphasis).

I'm fairly new to the rules and it's clear to me now what's intended, but, given it could easily be intended to work either way, it might perhaps be worth a fix. It's calling the additional damage card from the red joker a Damage Flip that causes the confusion because everything in the FAQ and errata is still saying that all Damage Flips are cheatable.

[Keltheos]

You can't Cheat the second flip from the Red Joker.

We may add an FAQ item for that.

[DeusInnomen]

You can't Cheat the second flip from the Red Joker.

We may add an FAQ item for that.

Thank you very much for that. I can absolutely see how the way it's written, one can think it's possible to cheat the second flip. The clarification is greatly appreciated!

[UberGruber]

You can't Cheat the second flip from the Red Joker.

We may add an FAQ item for that.

Thanks.

My point though is that unless you errata/FAQ it you run the risk of more new folk having the same issue as me because as it stands it reads as if you can (and as I recall the errate and/or FAQ instruct you to ignore all prior forum posts).

I'm not trying to be difficult about this and I do appreciate the clarification tremendously (as I'd have actually assumed that you could flip it based on both the rules manual and the rules as they are now), I just wanted to try and explain how I find the rules at the moment would allow the Cheat.