Jack Daw question

[Golden]

How do the insta kills work with him?

E.G. My opponent moves twice with a Steamborg Executioner then uses melee expert to hit him triggering decapitate. The relevant argument, as stated, is that decapitate happens after damage is dealt not after wounds are inflicted.(which Jack would be immune to sans a Focus strike) So what happens?

Pending that: How about headshot and slit jugular?

Be as detailed into the interaction as you like, we are Ex-Magic players and therefore will need it to be painstakingly explicit. And in advance: Thank you all.

[Wolfgar]

This question is not without a certain amount of murky precedent. I may very well be corrected shortly, but here is my take.

(I was corrected. You may want to skip reading this.)

In regards to Decapitate, Disembowel, and Slit Jugular:

For normal Strikes from the weapons associated with these triggers, Jack suffers no Wounds. He fails to take damage, and thus since these triggers go into effect after damaging Jack, the triggers fail to go off. Nothing happens.

In the case of use of these weapons as part of a Focused Strike, or if the weapons are somehow made magical, then they do cause Jack Daw Wounds. In that case, first Jack's Controller must discard either a Control Card or soulstone. If he does not then Jack dies and the trigger doesn't go off. If he does then the trigger is activated and Jack's player must pay the two Control Cards or Jack is killed. Remember, Jack can't spend soulstones.

In the case of Headshot:

Headshot specifically does not need to damage Jack to go off. Headshot only has to hit. Therefore Jack's controller must discard two Control Cards or Jack dies. Remember again Jack cannot spend soulstones.

Note a Strike with Headshot does no damage, so Jack does not need to discard the third card.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Wolfgar

[Kadeton]

This question is not without a certain amount of murky precedent. I may very well be corrected shortly, but here is my take.

In regards to Decapitate, Disembowel, and Slit Jugular:

For normal Strikes from the weapons associated with these triggers, Jack suffers no Wounds. He fails to take damage, and thus since these triggers go into effect after damaging Jack, the triggers fail to go off. Nothing happens.

In the case of use of these weapons as part of a Focused Strike, or if the weapons are somehow made magical, then they do cause Jack Daw Wounds. In that case, first Jack's Controller must discard either a Control Card or soulstone. If he does not then Jack dies and the trigger doesn't go off. If he does then the trigger is activated and Jack's player must pay the two Control Cards or Jack is killed. Remember, Jack can't spend soulstones.

In the case of Headshot:

Headshot specifically does not need to damage Jack to go off. Headshot only has to hit. Therefore Jack's controller must discard two Control Cards or Jack dies. Remember again Jack cannot spend soulstones.

Note a Strike with Headshot does no damage, so Jack does not need to discard the third card.

Yeah, I'm going to murk that up a bit. Decapitate, Disembowel and Slit Jugular are all resolved "when damaging" (i.e. during the Damage Resolution step) rather than "after damaging". Additionally, Slit Jugular specifically inflicts no damage despite occurring "when damaging", so inflicting damage with these abilities is not necessarily a requirement for the kill effect to be applied.

Personally, I can see no reason why the kill effects from all these triggers would not be applied to Jack. In my opinion, he needs an addition to his Undying rule that allows him to ignore effects that would kill or sacrifice him without inflicting damage (perhaps, again, by spending a card).

[Wolfgar]

Mmmm, quite, yes. It is when. That brings us around to the more general murkiness of if there is a damage resolution step if you know the target is immune. I believe there is-it's short, and pretty much fizzles out at step one, but it is there, so the death effects go in per normal.

If the instant death triggers do work that way though, I don't think Jack needs any kind of special immunity to them; they tend to be rare enough I don't see it being a major balance issue and it makes sense to lose a certain amount of effectiveness with much of your head/body missing.

[von Clausewitz]

You must pay close attention to the exact wording of Jack Daw's Oldest of magics ability. It States that he is immune to WD he suffers, meaning that the wounds are applied, however his wounds are not reduced as a result. The damage resolution step still occurs, a damage flip is performed, the wounds are suffered and then oldest of magics kicks in. All the auto-kill triggers referenced above are thus applicable.

[13th Warrior]

Agree with von Clausewitz - the damage is inflicted, it's just ignored, so the triggers work.

Oh, and...

In my opinion, he needs an addition to his Undying rule that allows him to ignore effects that would kill or sacrifice him without inflicting damage (perhaps, again, by spending a card).

Really?!Because JD isn't broken enough as is?

[Golden]

But I thought wounds had to be applied for Damage to have been suffered? I understand the difference between the steps, but read the Organ Donor thread for McM, it makes this even more confusing.

I just wish this was simple...

[dsmiles]

Crap. This is confusing. And I just bought Jack, too.

[Kadeton]

Really?!Because JD isn't broken enough as is?

I don't find him to be particularly broken. As this thread points out, the easiest way to deal with him is simply to find something that kills or sacrifices him without inflicting Wds, and just burn your opponent's hand down to nothing.

Or if you happen to play Leveticus, just sacrifice him using Entropic Transformation with no chance to resist. Damn I hate Leveticus.

[Golden]

Actually this thread has only served to confuse me when paired with the Organ Donor thread. Give that a read and share my pain.

[Adanedhel]

Or if you happen to play Leveticus, just sacrifice him using Entropic Transformation with no chance to resist. Damn I hate Leveticus.

Incorrect, Entropic Transformation has been errata'd to include a Wp resist

and honestly, outside of outcasts JD is very hard to deal with, Colette can do it, Som'er en Leveticus laugh at you for taking him, and when you play agains Hamelin you mock his running swarm that can't even hit JD.

JD is quite hit or miss, depending on opposition, but vs nonarcanist, and non outcast, chances of them directly dealing with it are small.

Or does Colette Dubois or Von Shill really need a boost because Levi can sack them when they are in his sight (I've actually done that you know, against both)