Do Rezzer's generally fear Pandora?

[Blog]

One of my bud got into the game with me and picked up Pandora. After reading a bit about her, it looks like she makes undead things make Wp duels. As a growing Rezzer, should I be concerned?

[Kythera's_Joker]

In all honesty there aren't many things out there that aren't afraid of Pandora. The easiest way to take her down with most minions is with indirect attacks, such as blasts and pulses, like the Punk Zombie's slice and dice. Also, anything that can ignore talents and spells which require WP duels to target models wreck Pandora. High WP models are also pretty much a necessity due to her tricks.

She's very difficult to defeat, but not impossibe. Just try to hit her with indirect attacks or models who just don't care and she won't be as big of a pain as normal. She'll still be a tough fight, but not as bad. Good luck!

[Tiny]

Seamus in my experience usually takes pandora apart.

[CrouchingMoose]

I would personally look into some crooked men since they deal out blasts. I've noticed that pandora doesn't handle blasts targetted at any surrounding sorrows all that well. And if she's all alone, she is typically much less of a threat than if shes got decent backup. Basically, look for something that can put lots of blasts out there and try and target things around pandora, that way she can't use maryter to move a hit on her to something else, plus you don't have to worry about beating her WP duel she uses for defense.

P.S. I would also consider Sue (just came out) he can boost every friendly's WP by 2 within 4in. and is generally a great counter to Pandora and Zorida.

[Ratty]

I really like Hanged against her.. Really high Willpower and if they get one hit in on her she's dead as she practically loses all her defences. It's very hard for her to win Wp->Wp duels if she's on a flip on them. So she can't incite to move or rely on her Wp shield to stop incoming attacks.

[Blog]

Thanks for the input everyone. Odds are in favor of a Seamus box vs Pandora box very soon. Any tips for the first one off match?

Crooked Men and Night Terrors are first on the list to get afterwards

[Calmdown]

Seamus is not a good counter to Pandora. No idea where that comes from. He has no abilities that cause her any issues.

Nicodem, on the other hand, can kill her in a single activation. Run a dog up next to her, have Nicodem nuke it three times putting blast damage on to her. You'll force her to burn SS to stay alive, and the secret to beating Pandora is making her burn SS. Once she's out of SS, she will roll over under a little pressure.

Nicodem is basically the best Rezzer master vs every Neverborn master.

[Soul Puppet]

Seamus is not a good counter to Pandora. No idea where that comes from. He has no abilities that cause her any issues.

I seem to recall something about Trail of Fear but can't remember the details...

[Huang Da Wei]

living models :aura12 are -2 WP

[Wolfgar]

Pandora and most of her crew are living models.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Wolfgar

[Calmdown]

Just because an ability has "Wp" on it doesn't mean that it's a counter to something, guys. It's a useful ability, but he is not a counter to her just because of it. For example, to use it he has to activate, which means that she can activate and move out of it. If she activates first, her activation control can obviate it.

And good Pandora crews have no living models other than Pandora herself, incidentally.

RE Hanged: hanged are not a great model in general since most things are nonliving. They're super slow, she's super fast, and they need to hit her in melee to get their trigger off. Which they will never do whilst she has stones. Spending 8 points on a counter that doesn't counter very well just makes the game even harder on yourself.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Calmdown

[Cunning]

And good Pandora crews have no living models other than Pandora herself, incidentally.

Really? Most Pandy lists will have a few woes and other than the twins all woes are living.

[Calmdown]

Really? Most Pandy lists will have a few woes and other than the twins all woes are living.

Woes are living? Oh well, in any case, they don't really care about -Wp anymore than any other model does.

[Cunning]

Yup, people seem to miss the fact that almost all neverborn are living. Notable exceptions being Collodi and his ilk and nightmares.

[Calmdown]

Yup, people seem to miss the fact that almost all neverborn are living. Notable exceptions being Collodi and his ilk and nightmares.

The upshot of that being that almost all Neverborn models are living but 90% of the ones you see used are not

[Soul Puppet]

Just because an ability has "Wp" on it doesn't mean that it's a counter to something, guys. It's a useful ability, but he is not a counter to her just because of it. For example, to use it he has to activate, which means that she can activate and move out of it. If she activates first, her activation control can obviate it.

So should the question be "What counters are there to Pandora, that the Rezzers have, without the need for activation?"

[Calmdown]

So should the question be "What counters are there to Pandora, that the Rezzers have, without the need for activation?"

"Without activation" shouldnt be part of the question. The point was if she activates first she will activation control you, if she acts second she'll move out of the ToF.

Rezzers have no hard counter for Pandora. All of the hard counters for Pandora are in Guild, pretty much (Perdita and Lady J being able to get around targeting restrictions). There are some soft counters around (high Wp Outcast crews, defensive Wp buffs, +ve Wp flips, etc) but very little obviates her. The main thing is that you need to get around her soulstone use. Which means:

Jack Daw, who is a hard counter for most masters who rely on stones and cheating.

Anything that can soulstone a Wp flip and hit her. McMourning with melee, Nicodem with Paralyze, Seamus taking a gunshot at her.

are the best counters. Master vs master. Best option there is!

[Ratty]

Some people are very pessimistic when it comes to Rezer vs Neverborn. The truth of it is -2Wp auras are actually useful against Pandora, They lower her Wp which makes incite/pacify harder to get off, which in turn means that she has to spend bigger cards or soulstones to keep the chain going more often. It quite heavily cuts down on her movement, as she is now Wp6 against Wp5 undead.

The Hanged might be reasonably slow, but they can walk through buildings, If you work out where her line of approach is going to be you can get the jump on her.

[karn987]

The upshot of that being that almost all Neverborn models are living but 90% of the ones you see used are not

So very untrue

When Pandora and Lilith are on the field and for a big part Zoraida, you see many more living NB. UNLESS you are against the Dreamer or Collodi, this holds true much more often then not.

Some of the NB's best staple models are living: Sorrows, Doppelganger, Tots, Young, Silurids, Waldgeists, etc.

In actuality, the only non-living ones you generally see out side of the 2 specific cases are: Lilitu, Lelu, and Stitched Together.

But the simple fact is, it boils down to your play groups meta and what they like to use *shrugs*. There is no "best" combination, that's a fools errand to even attempt to proove. Sure many work better then others but it always comes down to what syncs with the player best. Traditionally though, you see many more living NB models then you do unliving.

Listen to the Rat, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Ressers. They can do quite a lot against Pandora with a little for-thought and some cleverness.

But there is also the simple fact that Malifaux is not a game rife with counter effects that don't require activation. There are some and generally they fall into the category of avoidance mechanics (like Expose Fears from Pandora) and that just isn't really what Ressers do.

Edited January 26, 2012 by karn987
To many things at once, words... like noodles!

[Calmdown]

So very untrue

:stuff:

I like it when you're so very wrong in such a very wordy way

Almost every Neverborn crew that you see played by people who haven't just started the game comprises some combination of:

Primordial Magic

Voodoo Doll

Collodi

Marionettes

Wicked Dolls

Teddy

Bad Juju

Lelu

Lilitu

Stiched Together

Insidious Madness

The only thing you see with regularity that isn't one of those is the Doppelganger (and maybe a Sorrow in Pandora lists). Then some Nephs here and there. The overwhelming majority of models are still nonliving.

But this is totally diverging from the topic. Fact is, Trail of Fear is not some kind of magical counter to Pandora. It doesn't make Seamus some kind of magical Anti-Pandora solution. It's a soft-counter at best, and totally avoidable by a Pandora player who knows what he's doing.

[Bigkid]

Also because most Seamus crews tend to take more then a few Belles and 'Lure' is still the best way to dissect an opponents crew. Pandora, like all Neverborn, feels the death of every minion.

Oh and can't stress enough the need for taking a Hanged. 'Whisper..' on a Doppelganger, Lelu or Lilitu will reduce a Pandora player to tears.