Sue's hurting himself...but he's hard to kill!

[Turbodog]

Question: Can Sue take 3 wounds from his (1) Hurt ability to draw three cards if he has 2 wounds remaining.

Normally models can't take a voluntary action that would kill themselves but...

Sue has hard to kill.

So normally if Sue is at 2 wounds and takes 3 wounds from a source, hard to kill kicks in and saves his bacon at 1 wound.

Does it save my bacon here too? Can Sue take 3 wounds from (1) Hurt, drawing 3 cards, if he has 2 wounds left - allowing hard to kill to kick in and keep him alive at 1 wound?

Thanks!

[Kadeton]

Nope. Hard to Kill only works on incoming Damage, not Wounds. Inflicting three Wd will kill Sue outright, and he's not allowed to Hurt himself to death.

[Csonti]

IMO the rulebook's term of Damage (Dg) is not the same as the standard English word: damage used in the book (or in the description of skills) many times. A damage source could be anything that causes Damage (Dg) or Wound (Wd). So in this case the answer is a big yes, Hard to Kill would save him.

Of course I'm not a marshal so wait for official statement.

[mythicFOX]

IMO the rulebook's term of Damage (Dg) is not the same as the standard English word: damage used in the book (or in the description of skills) many times. A damage source could be anything that causes Damage (Dg) or Wound (Wd). So in this case the answer is a big yes, Hard to Kill would save him.

:wtf:

I may be having a thick day, I have a lot of those, but could you explain that again? 'cause I have no idea what you mean.

[Oshova]

I think he means that Hard To Kill stops you from dieing when taking Dg or Wds. Which I'm sure is true.

Any time you would be reduced to less than 1 Wd, you are reduced to 1 Wd instead, unless you are already on 1 Wd.

[Csonti]

:wtf:

I may be having a thick day, I have a lot of those, but could you explain that again? 'cause I have no idea what you mean.

I was referring to the previous post.

Nope. Hard to Kill only works on incoming Damage, not Wounds. Inflicting three Wd will kill Sue outright, and he's not allowed to Hurt himself to death.

Hard to Kill reads:

While this model has 2 or more Wd remaining when it suffers damage, it can only be reduced to 1 Wd by a single damage source.

Here the word damage is not the same as the Malifaux game term Damage (Dg). You can suffer damage from sources that inflict either Damage (Dg) or Wound (Wd). And therefore Sue's ability could work when he is down to 2 Wd's.

Hope that helps.

[Headcase2]

The damage suffered from Hurt is more like a cost. You can't pay if you don't have the wounds left, so if Sue is down to 2 wounds he can only draw one card and bring himself down to 1 wound.

[Q'iq'el]

Cost or not, it still is a damage source, isn't it? Hard to Kill would stop it at 1 wound even if it required 10 Wd as the cost.

[JuJubee]

pg 44 of the RM "...Models can only suffer as many Wounds as they have remaining, and can never be reduced to negative Wounds."

(1) Hurt: Inflict up to 3 Wd on Sue. Draw one card for each Wd inflicted. This action may be performed once per turn.

Also on pg 44. "A model cannot use a Talent or cast a Spell that requires it to inflict Wd on itself if it would reduce it's own Wounds to 0."

So while he could use it I don't think he could draw 2 cards with 2 Wounds remaining. Since he is inflict Wounds directly not Dg

Hard to kill: While a model has 2 or more Wd remaining when it suffers Dg, it may only be reduced to 1 Wd by a single damage source.

pg 44 Effects which increase or reduce Dg so not affect Wd inflicted directly, and vice versa.

Note that hard to kill actually specifies suffers Dg not Damage (pg 116)

Edited January 12, 2012 by JuJubee

[Ciaran]

Yeah, it's not gonna work. You don't have the resources to pay the cost for the amount of cards you're talking.

JuJuBee spelled it out pretty well.

[Csonti]

Hard to kill: While a model has 2 or more Wd remaining when it suffers Dg, it may only be reduced to 1 Wd by a single damage source.

Note that hard to kill actually specifies suffers Dg not Damage (pg 116)

So they changed the wording in the RM. Now that resolves the issue. I quoted the skill's description from a Quick Reference PDF which was not corrected so it seems. Sorry for the confusion.

In this case Sue's ability couldn't be saved by Hard to Kill at all.