Counting Cards - Is it worth the Effort?

[Kael Hate]

This +1

Also, is getting an edge really all that important? This is just a game after all.

When I play, I try to do so at the best of my ability. Why bother if you offer anything less? If you do, you cheat your opponent of competition. I'd rather lose to any pro and learn something new than beat a thousand gubbins. You can't evolve without experience and an opponent that offers you the mediocrity of flipping off suplies none.

This is My opinion and the reason I count cards. It is a skill that I can use without loss and I feel its adds to my repertoire.

[nilus]

This is My opinion and the reason I count cards. It is a skill that I can use without loss and I feel its adds to my repertoire.

And that is fine, but don't be surprised if people refuse to play you if you advertise that "skill".

Personally like I said above I don't think it gives anyone an edge so I don't care. By attempting to control this one variable most people would lose site of several others. I'd much rather concentrate on my board position and optimizing my movements. In the end they will dictate the game much more then the card flips.

But if you feel it does then no one can really stop you. I would just choose not to flaunt it(or even bring it up) as it will make a lot of players dislike you.

[TreeNinja]

I think that true card counting is kind of worthless in Malifaux. at least if you have to teach yourself how to to use it that is. The reason I see this is because the game is not just about the cards. its about your and your opponets models abilities, and its about positioning, and also about objectives that can very from game to game. because of these other factors I think card counting could help but it really won't give you that strong of an advantage.

I can more or less follow what high cards my opponent has laid down and I pay attention to the jokers. the reason I do this is because I play more or less from what I have in my hand and I figure the likely hood of them pulling it off. I do that so I know if I have a shot or if its something I will be using as a way to maybe forcing my opponit to burn some cards to make something I try later on in the round more likley to happen.

I know I'm not the only player doing this. and it may be that one day I will be able to predict what cards I will pull and what cards my opponent will pull but it no matter how good I get it will not tell me what importance my opponent will place on an exact model or objective and with that element in place with this game I feel that things like counting cards just won't give that big of an advantage.

[JayBarlekamp]

When I play, I try to do so at the best of my ability. Why bother if you offer anything less? If you do, you cheat your opponent of competition.

Now you run on the assumption that your opponent only wants competition. I "bother" to play because I want to have fun and hopefully my opponent feels the same. I want to have a memorable story, not an over-analyzed series of flips that ends with one person the victor but nothing that makes me say "Damn, I'll never forget that game."

I'd rather lose to any pro and learn something new than beat a thousand gubbins. You can't evolve without experience and an opponent that offers you the mediocrity of flipping off suplies none.

And I'd rather play a thousand "gubbins" than 1 person who considers himself a "pro".

I guess I'll never understand the need for some players to turn every game into an ego stroking event. If I want to compete at something, I'll enter a fencing tournament. Or, I could learn to play chess at a high level. Both of these are what many would consider competition endeavors.

I count myself lucky that all the competetive players have stayed with 40k in my area. At least I don't have to decline games with anyone just because I know I won't have fun.

If my opponent was counting cards, especially mine, I'd just hand him my deck so he could count it at his leisure, and go find someone else to play a game with.

[Kael Hate]

Now you run on the assumption that your opponent only wants competition. I "bother" to play because I want to have fun and hopefully my opponent feels the same. I want to have a memorable story, not an over-analyzed series of flips that ends with one person the victor but nothing that makes me say "Damn, I'll never forget that game."

What makes the game fun? If you walk yours guys out in front of me and we stand and flip at each other until won wins isn't fun for me. Tactically outplaying an opponent who is also trying to do the same to me is fun for me.

Is Malifaux a game for you? My dictionary states the definition for a game as: "a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators." Without the competitive aspect is it still a game?

The memorable Story. I get this, but how does it occur? isn't there an attempt by you and you opponent to achieve a task. If they are not attempting to win but rather submit what is memorable.

Todays game I as Leveticus and My opponent Von Schill met in an old Frontier town. His task was to Slaughter me and mine to claim a building. It was fun to vie for our objectives. I don't believe he card counts. I think he weighs more into condensation and resilience, a deliberate ignorance of the card values because his crew plays that way. My Crew on the other hand needs to make flips count. Alyce is hunting, do I activate her first or last? do I focus or rapid fire? Without thinking at this level and being out activated, It would have been a shoot out I lost. We don't play for Sheep Stations (or Oil Rigs or Cattle Ranches) so there is no blunt aspect to win at all costs.

And I'd rather play a thousand "gubbins" than 1 person who considers himself a "pro".

Considering yourself a pro doesn't make you a pro.

To me, playing gubbin (doing default actions without consideration for the opponent or actual attempt at winning the game) is pointless.

I guess I'll never understand the need for some players to turn every game into an ego stroking event. If I want to compete at something, I'll enter a fencing tournament. Or, I could learn to play chess at a high level. Both of these are what many would consider competition endeavors.

I count myself lucky that all the competetive players have stayed with 40k in my area. At least I don't have to decline games with anyone just because I know I won't have fun.

If my opponent was counting cards, especially mine, I'd just hand him my deck so he could count it at his leisure, and go find someone else to play a game with.

Seems we've Derailed here.

You say No to card counting, its Over-Analysis and to you not fun. Ok accepted, we is different.

What I would like to know is, what makes the game fun for you if there is no competitive aspect between the parties? I want to try and work this out. If I play Ludo or Monopoly or any other game I try to achieve the objective hopefully in a fashion that was interesting or with a show of game skill.

[magicpockets]

On thing I find myself doing is if I see a card by mistake when shuffling I'll ask my opponent to shuffle my deck for me, same if I have a high card on top of my discard pile. Being able to shuffle it to the top few cards for your control hand is very naughty and why you should always cut the decks (which seems to never happen, even in tournies)

[Kael Hate]

On thing I find myself doing is if I see a card by mistake when shuffling I'll ask my opponent to shuffle my deck for me, same if I have a high card on top of my discard pile. Being able to shuffle it to the top few cards for your control hand is very naughty and why you should always cut the decks (which seems to never happen, even in tournies)

I come from previous CCG experience and insist my opponent let me cut and that they consider cutting mine. Shuffling is a little different. I may ask them to reshuffle and let me cut but would never insist that I shuffle their deck. I hope they treat me the same. If they think there is an issue with my deck, incidental or otherwise, i'd want them to speak up, but respect my cards.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

"a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators."

Other keyphrase didn't get highlighted is their own amusement.

Game can mean a lot of different things.

For op, the first duels are key and often times that means your count will hold very little value. It doesn't start becoming more important to later in the turn as the deck gets smaller. I don't see a competitive edge there. I play my moves not the expected duel result. If you feel it helps go for it, if it slows down the game than forget than it loses enjoyment.

I hate indecision when I'm playing, and I hate delays. I don't play often so I like to play a lot. Now I don't mind banter and chatting, but if I have to sit there while you run numbers I. Your head, I don't think I'm going to aka for a rematch.

[seamoose]

I hold the black joker till late game or an important turn. And I pay attention to the cards.

Edited December 17, 2011 by seamoose
lurking forums is better than opinions.

[Kael Hate]

I hate indecision when I'm playing, and I hate delays. I don't play often so I like to play a lot. Now I don't mind banter and chatting, but if I have to sit there while you run numbers I. Your head, I don't think I'm going to aka for a rematch.

Same 'ere.

Get on with the game.

If you can do it, do it. If you can't don't.

Have Fun.

[nilus]

I come from previous CCG experience and insist my opponent let me cut and that they consider cutting mine.

I think Gaining Grounds official states you should cut each others deck every round. Personally in a friendly game I don't bother with it. If someone needs to win that badly of a pickup game then I just feel sorry for them.

Local tournaments I generally don't enforce deck cutting either for similar reasons. We all know each other and trust each other.

At the only "national" level tournament I run I insist that decks be cut every round. Because I know from experience that there have been some players so bent on winning they have done some shady card tricks to get an edge.

[Q'iq'el]

how do they regulate and identify card counting in casinos?

Poorly.

[Kael Hate]

I think Gaining Grounds official states you should cut each others deck every round. Personally in a friendly game I don't bother with it. If someone needs to win that badly of a pickup game then I just feel sorry for them.

I get that.

I also know that there is Natural bias that occurs in hand shuffling and a cut helps break that slightly. We often have players who "Tap" (When the deck is offered to them to cut they just tap the top of the deck). Tap is allowed in all our local games except for Poker.

I have seen a MtG player call a judge to make a cut because his opponent wouldn't. I trust him less than most oddly enough.

Local tournaments I generally don't enforce deck cutting either for similar reasons. We all know each other and trust each other.

Nice that you have such a group.

[nilus]

Nice that you have such a group.

Are there really that many cheating players out there? Just seems like such a pointless thing. It's just toy soldiers.

[Ratty]

Are there really that many cheating players out there? Just seems like such a pointless thing. It's just toy soldiers.

Having worked for the big evil empire... Yeah.. there really are.

[ukrocky]

Nice that you have such a group.

With regards to Nilus' group not cutting, when I game at Harrogate, where we're all competitve gamers who go to tournaments alot, we don't tend to cut decks in friendly games either. I feel sorry that you have a group that doesn't trust each other that much!

[Q'iq'el]

Been playing games for well over a decade now and I've never met a single one cheater. Honest mistakes, yes. I make them too. Outward cheating (swapping cards, loaded dice, intentionally convincing opponents the rules say something else etc.) never.

But I've met quite a few players absolutely obsessed with preventing cheating.

I don't have any data to support my opinion, but I've grown convinced there's an anti-cheating type out there fighting with phantom cheaters, suspicious of all opponents and complicating the lives of other players with thousands of anti-cheating rules.

I'd go as far as say it is a variant of WAAC personality - rather than focusing on winning at all cost, it obsesses about being cheated out of his fair chance for victory.