New with neverborn

[Sybaris]

Hello,

I've been reading the "things you hate about Malifaux" and there seems to be alot of angst against Neverborns for being overpowered.

My trouble is, they're the one i like the most (theme if not style).

Model/theme wise i like Nekima and Lilith, but i am also about to teach Malifaux to other people, and i obviously don't want to be using overpowered set ups so they don't get discouraged right from the start.

So, what are the combos i should avoid?

Is Nekima viable away from Lelith or other nephilims?

Thanks

[Fetid Strumpet]

Lilith can be a nasty master but in my experience of the neverborn masters she is the most player friendly. Collodi, Zoraida, and especially the Dreamer and Pandora all really do some truly frustrating things for an opponent to have to deal with. Lilith is really good at what she does, but what she does is generally what most crews do.

I honestly wouldn't feel bad about going with Lilith and using her to teach people the game. Especially if you get a good challenge box against them. I'd recommend a Perdita Box, as the possible best box to play a lilith box against. Perdita is exceptionally powerful and her shooting mechanics box to box will help ensure that your teaching partner has a good deal of fun learning the game.

[micahwc]

Lilith versus the Ortegas is usually a real fun game as Ortega gun range is about equal to Nephilim charge range.

Nekima works well with Pandora and Zoraida. She would work just as well with the Dreamer but she isn't a nightmare and therefore is a poor choice for him. Lelu and Lililtu are much better for him for the cost.

In some ways Nekima replaces Lilith in a Pandora or Zoraida list. She gives those other masters synergy with Nephilim which they normally lack. She works very well with Zoraida and Pandora, as she is good in melee, she can be obeyed, and she generates some Willpower flips.

She works fine with Lilith and can be companioned by her. She is also playable without a single other nephilim on the table, but will be losing out on several of her abilities if you do so.

I love Lilith and she is my favorite master, as well as my first. This being said I believe she is usually considered the least powerful neverborn master. This is because she only has a few tricks and is in a faction known for its tricksyness. "Weak" is subjective as Lilith can still be very competative. This is one reason why some feel the Neverborn are overpowered; their weakest link is really strong. Their stronger masters are amongst the most powerfully percieved in the game.

Combos to avoid are Lelu and Lilitu, especially more than one of them, and especially against a newer player. These two models go well with every Neverborn master, and are honestly amongst the best 14 points you can spend in any Neverborn list.

Edited December 15, 2011 by micahwc

[Sybaris]

This is good news for me since want to play lilith and have little interest in the other masters, although a bit sad to hear about the lelu/lilitu combo.

Would Ophelia be a good match vs lilith? I guess the gremlins are a tad subpar to the Ortegas but they are sometimes seen as "silly" by new players and that can be just want they need to overcome the rule learning curve.

Thanks alot

[Cunning]

I find Ophelia to be a good match up against Lilith. Every game I've had with Lilith against ophelia has been close and usually ends up with Ophelia winning.

[Stonedog-7]

Found the only frustrating thing about Lilith for beginners is learning how to deal with the speed and Df8 combined with use Soulstones

However once you learn to target just about anything other than Df for her personally and work toward schemes without concentrating on her too much it becomes alot easier

She was something of a terror locally while we all learnt to cope with her but not maligned for it like Pandora... she plays a nice straightforward kind of game that most people don't begrudge even if she has some nasty movement tricks up her sleeve and a hell of a lot of hitting power & high Df in her "standard" list

[iamthefly]

Don't worry about the lilitu/lelu combo, its not gonna win the game for you. sure they are good, but one pair isnt too bad.

Every faction has good combos, like Hoffman with the peacekeeper (he removes all the negatives that keep it reasonable) just don't take them every game then people won't complain. The game is about combos, I use the lilitu/lelu now and again with pandora or zoraida and they often die (one one dies the other shrivels up). no one has ever complained, but i vary what i put on the table. I own 2 pairs, but am not gonna use them together very often because that would be deadly, but I am going to try it.

Take what you want, just mix it up a bit and its more fun for both players. There is no need to feel bad about any combo as long as you dont spam it.

Edited December 15, 2011 by iamthefly

[Sybaris]

Pretty sound advices, thanks

I believe the crew i will likely go with is :

Lilith (4 Stones)

Nekima

3 x Young Nephilim

Edited December 15, 2011 by Sybaris

[micahwc]

Pretty sound advices, thanks

I believe the crew i will likely go with is :

Lilith (4 Stones)

Nekima

3 x Young Nephilim

Not bad, but has few models for a 35 point game. Would you consider dropping 1 young and bringing 2 terror tots instead? With Nekima you can take 4 wounds and transform 1 into another young right away.

Also, I typically recommend at least 6 stones for Lilith, though others may use less. She is frequently in combat and gets a lot of attention.

[Sybaris]

That's fine by me, although it'll depend how i like the tots...they seem to be more or less insignificant (apart from flay), but i'll sure get some for variety's sake.

[Stonedog-7]

Our lilith player has been having good fun with the following at 35ss

Lilith (5 cache), Nekima, 3 Tots, 2 Young

The tots getting masks from Nekima for insane sprints in the first turn along with Lilith earthquaking things forward gives insane speed, Nekima troubleshoots hard targets or allows tots/young to grow/mature when they need to without having to try and rush things... it may not be a net decked power list but it's good fun and still solid

And despite the forum hate against her, Nekima has proven to be tricky to take out and a boon to that style of setup crew wise... particularly when Lilith can drop a forest to stop things charging her & Nekima before they rush in the following turn and double-team things with brutal results

As for tots, locally (including our lilith player) thought much the same... but then he stopped throwing them blindly into the fray and sent them after objectives or isolated enemies, using sprint to get them anywhere they need to be and they started to shine... now i think he even considers 3 to be the "real" core of his lists

[Sybaris]

Quite convincing.

Looking at the crew builder, is the Cherub any worthwhile?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't really like the Cherub. Combat totems overall tend to not do to well. I do play ressers mainly, but a friend over the summer bought an entire Lilith Crew, including the Cherub, and he said at the end of the summer he wished he had bought the Primordial Magic instead. It's very hard to beat the extra card from the snake.

[Stonedog-7]

Whilst i've nearly been screwed over by a Cherub almost actually hitting (had to cheat the red joker to avoid it), i'd still have to agree that the Primordial is still probably the better totem

Still, 2 stones for 1 extra card and the chance to try to transposition Lilith, whilst not a waste, isn't that great in my opinion... i think just like Seamus and Pandora a totem is very much optional for her (unlike say Ramos or Raspy who love having a totem on the field)

[Sybaris]

I see, i think i'll buy the stat card of both and test them with a proxy.

Thanks alot for the tips, that's really appreciated.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Why buy the card? Postage will get you. If you need to test the proxy and don't have access to book 1 you might see if the cards are in the version 2 downloads section of the website, and then once you decide which you like better, grab the model.

[Sybaris]

Ah i didn't notice the tots were having a v2 online

[micahwc]

I think the general consensus is that Primoridal Magic is better. I usually don't play Lilith with a totem, but the extra card is useful. Both totems can cast transposition on Lilith. This can be handy at times, but isn't usually as game changing as it sounds on paper. I think I would honestly just have the extra 2 stones for initial defense flips to get the disappear trigger on an enemies first attack.

[Kabosan]

Lilith was my first crew, and I bought the Cherub for the totem... end of the day I was dissapointed. I think the Primordial Magic and the extra card 9 times out of 10 would be the better choice. However: that 1 time out of 10 don't discount the Cherub. The ability (with a cheated Love) to take a heavy hitter effectively out of the game for 1 round can be a real life saver. No (or much weaker) strikes from that model is amazing. The Cherub is VERY situational, but if you think your enemy is going to be counting on 1 really heavy hitter, consider the Cherub. Otherwise go for the Primordial Magic... hey it's an extra control card!

Edited December 24, 2011 by Kabosan