c0un7_z3r0 Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi! I'm your average ignorant n00b. I know close to nothing about the game except something about cards instead of dices and that the minis are awesome! From the looks, fluff and overviews I find myself drawn to either Hamelin or Leveticus. I'm looking for something fun and a little unconventional to play, would any of those fit that description? Wold be awesome with some advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Congratulations. Out of all the masters in the game you've managed to pick the only two that fundamentally change the basic cards/control hand mechanics of the game. Where every other master gets to draw a fresh hand each turn, Levi can only do that if he died last turn (don't worry, he resurrects), and Hamelin only draws a card when the enemy plays one. Don't let that worry you though, they're both fun masters, and liking the models and fluff is more important when choosing a crew than what they do on the table. They'll both give you a slightly steeper learning curve than an "easier" master, but will definitely give you sonething unconventional! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi! I'm your average ignorant n00b. I know close to nothing about the game except something about cards instead of dices and that the minis are awesome! From the looks, fluff and overviews I find myself drawn to either Hamelin or Leveticus. I'm looking for something fun and a little unconventional to play, would any of those fit that description? Wold be awesome with some advice! Well, both are great. But both can also cause some frustration due to difficult mechanics. Hamelin is a lot more annoying to play against with newer players, for sure. If you do end up playing with Hamelin, make sure to read up on his crew's capabilities and explain EVERY MECHANIC before the game begins. With Levi, just remind them that murder isn't always the best way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 With Levi, just remind them that murder isn't always the best way to go. It's always the best way to go for the Levi player. No need to remind your opponents of that, they can look in the books, too. That being said, it pays huge dividends to look up and read about the crews you'll be facing. I can't count how many times knowing my enemy has saved my ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulG Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 As fair warning, both of those masters have a sharp learning curve and are not for the shy of wallet. Don't get me wrong, they are both really awesome in terms of fluff and mechanics and I wholeheartedly appreciate one ready to rise to the challenge, just remember that the challenge is there. That said, if you're facing a bunch of people who are also new to the game? Leveticus. Hamelin is a pain to play against for new people and you'll lose fellow players like that. The biggest considerations for Leveticus are his hiring restrictions and his desire to die every turn. Most of the difficulty is placed on you, not your opponent (other than them remembering that killing Leveticus is usually useless). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Sure, hamelin can be not fun to play against for new players, but that shouldn't discourage people from playing him...if anything, learning how hamelin ticks might be very useful for new players in the long term. I just don't like this trend of someone starting a thread about picking up hamelin , and everyone feels the need to indirectly scare them away by saying that no one will want to play against them. I hate the dreamer and most Guild, but I'm not.going to steer a new player away from those crews if that's what appeals to them. I feel like there's this unspoken effort to curb the amount of.hamelin players in the world, but less for other masters who are just as powerful...kinda F'd up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0un7_z3r0 Posted November 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Wow, thanks for all your replies! These two does seem to be made of the stuff I'm looking for. You guys helped me straighten out a couple of issues. But at the same time it raised a couple of new questions. About the steep learning curve, how steep is the learning curve of the game in general compared to other games? Is it easy (ex. 40k) or hard (ex. Warmachine)? SoulG - you mentioned that they were "not for the shy of wallet". What does that mean in additional investments? One appeal with Malifaux (please tell me if I got this wrong anyone) is that you don't seem to need that many minis (hence is somewhat cheaper and my concern will be on playing the game and not planning my next purchase). Necromunda is a great example in that regard while 40k is quite the opposite. And if these are not to recommend in this regard, which master is (that is still fun to play and somewhat unconventional)? And the last question, what's the difference gamewise between them both? What do they do, so to speak, or what's the general idea with each of these lads (I hope someone understands where I'm heading)? What tricks do the got up there sleeves etc? Thoughts and advice are always welcome an appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Both can summon models so you need plenty of extra Rats for Hamelin, and Steam punk abominations for Levi and maybe 1 or two others. It is still a couple of hundred £ cheaper than 40k Even with these model heavy masters, its just not as cheap as £30 - £40 as some people want when they start:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'll take a stab at your questions. Regarding the learning curve, Malifaux is probably a little harder than Warmachine, mainly because each individual model has between 4 to 10 abilities, and they're often unique to that model. The basic mechanics of the game aren't complicated, but keeping track of who can do what is quite a lot of work. The game often comes down to knowing your opponents crew's capabilities as well as your own. Most of the masters can be played straight out of the starter box without needing to buy more, however Hamelin and Levi boxes don't really give you everything you'll need. For a Hamelin crew you're going to need at least 1 or 2 Rat Catchers, and another 8 or so rats. That'd be plenty to get started. for Levi, on top of the starter you'll want to also buy a Desolation Engine and another Hollow Waif. Apart from that, Levi crews can contain ANY undead and ANY construct (robot) from the entire Malifaux range, so to buy his whole toolbox it'd be costly, but not essential. Your best place to read about playstyles is the PullMyFinger wiki page. In essence though, Hamelin has two main tactics used in combination: 1) steamroller the enemy with a swarm of rats. Each time a model (including a rat) dies, a rat is summoned, quickly overcoming most things with sheer volume of models. 2) cast spells on enemies which make them "insignificant". Insignificant models can't target Hamelin at all, and can't complete objectives, thus securing you a win. All of Leveticus abilities cause Wds to himself, and his aim is to die every turn, because he doesnt get to replenish his hand of cards otherwise. As long as a Hollow Waif is on the table, he resssurects at the start of the next turn. His game plan is to cast devastating magic, with the side effect of turning enemies into Abominations which he controls. 4 abominations can combine to make a Desolation Engine which is very very killy. He also has to think about protecting his Waifs from being killed when he's off the table, which would mean he was dead for good. Hope this helps! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Both the models have a wide range of possible models to select from. You don't have to buy that many of them, but its pretty easy to think "What if I try using a fire gamin" and pick up yet more models for either master. You could probably get everything you could possibly want to field for less than a 40K army, and you can certainly get a fully functioning crew for a lot less. Your collection will probably be bigger than a necromunda gang, but you can get by with that small a crew. As a rough guess a 35 SS game will typically have 6-8 models on each side. Often you'll want to have 10-15 models to select your crew from. Hamelin will more likely have 10-15 models on the table, and 20-30 to select his crew from. Leveticus is probaly 6-10 on the table, but 20-30 to choose from. Just owning exactly enough models to field the 1 list is viable, but you don't pick your list until you know what your mission is, so there is a good chance to use specialist models for some missions. The Basic rules are pretty easy to learn. Its the individual models that can make things confusing. My best suggestion for learning is to play small games with only 2 or 3 minions, getting used to how the game plays, before you have to really understand how your force as a whole works. (In my view this is why most starter boxes have duplicates of several models). These two are even more confusing than most, as they fundimentally change several rules. You can still learn the game from them fine, just expect that you will have several games not fully understandign what they do, and how they work. You will probably also need to re-learn the basic rules if you play a different master as they seem very different. The learning curve is tricky to discribe, as even after you have mastered your crew, knowing your enemy is very important in the game, and you can find your well honed tactics will just fail completely against a different master, and you have to re-think what your crew can do, and how to counter what they can do. http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/ Is a great resource to read about tactics for the different figures and ways to use them. But as a quick summery Leveticus uses his own life force to bring powerful undead constructs out. He can be brought back to life as long as he has a hollow waif on the tabe at the end of the turn. He only gets a new hand when he dies. He plays very differently to any other master with his death and reborn feel. Hamelin is based on the pied piper. His crew is filled with small children and rats. He is currently animated by a powerful plague creature, so he spreads disease through out his opponents. Like Leveticus he has a rebirth mechanism , and he also can keep himself safe by bullying opponents and making them insignifigant. He only gets to draw cards when ever your opponent Uses Cards. because of his hiring limitations he largly has to take cheap minions, giving you a swarm of models under your control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 To put in perspective for you, my Zoraida and Pandora crews have a core of about about 10 models I rotate for each. My Hamelin crew has 50+ models at last count with more waiting for paint - and all of them have a purpose depending on the sceme/strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Krack'd Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (snip) My Hamelin crew has 50+ models at last count with more waiting for paint - and all of them have a purpose depending on the sceme/strategies. As I'm also starting a Hamelin crew, I'd be grateful if you could give a breakdown of what models you use for your Hamelin crew and if time permits, what schemes and/or strategies are considered in the choice of each when building a crew. Hope I'm not threadjacking; I think the OP would be interested as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0un7_z3r0 Posted November 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Thanks for all your extensive replies! The learning curves for for these chaps seems a little frightening, but it makes it more exciting at the same time! I would sure like to play both! But I guess I lean towards Leveticus since I totally dig SPA as well as the concept of steampunk-zombies! But I believe Mirror Krack'ds question about what a Hamelin crew ideally consist of is interesting? What Leveticus needs at least seems more obvious (do correct me if I'm wrong). But the biggest issue for me is the model count! With Malifaux I was looking for a small investment mostly for the fun of trying something new (these chaps starters seem to be on the expensive end as well). As these Masters seem to require more minis than I intended on getting, for now anyway, they loose some of their appeal. That said, I wouldn't know which of the other masters to choose. Of those masters that, according to pullmyfinger, seem to manage without much additional investments while still being somewhat interesting are Ramos, Zoriada and Nikodem. I do like this whole steampunk-construct thing Ramos got going but fluffwise he seems a little bit dull and way to much of a nice guy. I want something darker! Hence Zoriada and Nikodem. I like this whole voodoo-swamp-hag thing and the thought of controlling my opponents minis! But what do I do when facing a high number of models with high wip/immun to influence? And Nikodem, well he's the zombie mastah (and have a cheap starter)! Zombies are cool, but I'm a little concerned that I'll feel a little limited with what he can do... especially if he is dependent on killing living things to do what he does best. And non of them are Leveticus (or Hamelin)... Decisions decisions... Thoughts and advice are more than welcome as usual! Edited November 28, 2011 by c0un7_z3r0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulG Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Whoa, whoa. Please don't let me shy you away. When I saw, "Not for the shy of wallet," I mean by Malifaux standards. By 40k standards both are dirt cheap. I can get most crews up and running for ~$50 retail. I can get a single master competitive at ~$100, and usually a faction competitive at ~$150. See my shopping on a budget threads in the various faction forums for details. Outcasts are different. They don't like each other's models (so you have to build them separately), their unique hiring restrictions make each master like a mini-faction, and it's hard to start 3/6 of them (counting Von Schill/Ophelia) for $50 retail. You're looking at $100, $150-$200 to be really comfortable. With the exception of Marcus, also keep in mind that Malifaux is a bit unique when it comes to masters like Nicodem, Leveticus, and Hamelin and buying models for them. You can spend $100 on them and be happy with your purchase. You can also spend $500 on them and be just as happy with your purchase, because gosh darn it you'll run into the one obscure situation where having that obscure model just happened to be the best thing. Could you have gotten by with something more standard? Probably, but it feels good to be able to tailor to the situation, and Malifaux highly rewards it. Leveticus and Hamelin can both ostensibly hire out of faction, which means that you will always have something to buy. But if you're on a budget, we can work with that. Give us a budget and we can help you reach your goals. EDIT: If you want to see where each Master can be at ~$50-~$100 than you can look at these threads. Guild Ressurectionists Arcanists Neverborn Outcasts Edited November 28, 2011 by SoulG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 As I'm also starting a Hamelin crew' date=' I'd be grateful if you could give a breakdown of what models you use for your Hamelin crew and if time permits, what schemes and/or strategies are considered in the choice of each when building a crew.[/quote'] Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAH Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Leveticus: Definitely: Starter Box An extra pack of Hollow Waifs Desolation Engine Maybe: Canine Remains to generate the second Hollow Waif Necropunks for grabbing objectives An extra pack of Steampunk Abominations Hamelin: Starter Box Rat Catchers (for control over rats outside of Hamelin's range) An extra pack of rats Obedient Wretch (hamelin's totem) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegantir Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Hamelin: Starter Box Rat Catchers (for control over rats outside of Hamelin's range) An extra pack of rats Obedient Wretch (hamelin's totem) As I just posted in the other thread that is like this, that is about half of what you need to start. In addition to that, you need 6-9 more Rats (for an ideal total of 15, as getting 12 out in a 35 point game is not that unusual), 3 more Stolen (as getting 4 out is a 35 point game is not that unusual), and whatever else you want to finish him off (4-6 Canine Remains is nice). I would not recommend Hamelin to a new player because of his model count, and how he plays. The same goes for Levi, but a little less so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0un7_z3r0 Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Again, thanks for all your input guys! This forum seems to have a really nice and welcoming atmosphere! I believe that I'll soon might be able make a decision that I feel comfortable doing. SoulG - About the budget, I, unfortunately, believe that I am a little "shy of wallet" by Malifaux-standards ATM. My miniatures budget this month will be around $50 ($70 if I'm really feeling generous, but that would be way more than I intended on spending). And since Maelstrom got a Christmas-sale the following would be just over $80, (but would still be a rudimentary list, if I got things right that is): Leveticus $61.50 [Yes, it's that important] - Desolate and Souless Box Set ($45.00) - Desolation Engine ($16.50) $100 - Hollow Waifs ($14.00) - Necropunks ($18.00) Now, I could afford the $100 ($80 in this case) list, but if I can get Nicodem or Zoraida up and running for less and if those would be a better way into the game, that seems like a more reasonable start... I might have to face the fact that Leveticus will have to wait. I mean, I have no idea if I like the game or not to start with. I rather find this out using a proper list (to feel restrained by lack of minis is just frustrating) and if I cold get such a list for $50 or less, that would be a sacrifice I could live with. But as we approach those $100 the investment starts to feel a little bit reckless, considering my economy... So if you guys would have to choose between Nicodem or Zoraida (which seems like the two most attractive Masters ATM, everything considered), which would you choose and why (apologies if this question is a little out of place since this is an Outcast-forum and all, if it is please tell me)? Thoughts and advice are as usual more than welcome! And once again, thanks for all the input that has already been given! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 SoulG has put a simliar post in the neverborne and Ressurectionist to give proposed lisst for all masters at $50 and $100. Personally I would propse nicodem as the Undead you buy for him can be used by Leveticus as well when you want to expand, givingyou double duty from several figures, and also will have allowed you tyo know what some of ypur crew do whilst tryingto learn Leveticus. But the Leveticus box and desolation engine will let you play a 25 SS game quite happily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I am not sure that Nicodem is a great choice for those who are shy of wallet either. When I have come up against him, I have faced off against a huge range of minions. If you are a little cash conscious, then I would steer clear of summoning focused crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serigala Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 There is a list on the wiki of the SS sizes of all the starter boxes. http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/Gathering+Supplies Almost all the boxes will need a few extra models to round out the boxset, if for no other reason than 35ss is the most common points value to play at. You will need to reach 35ss pretty quickly to join in most local Malifaux gaming scenes. Depending on where you play, you might be quite happy to proxy some models. My Hamelin crew has 2 Rat catchers and the Obediet Wretch, and an extra 3 Malifaux Rats (to bring the total to 6) and then another dozen or so proxied rats. If you want a stand alone box which plays well without anything else, then some of the Henchmen are very good. Von Schill and his Freikorps, Ophelia and Collodi can all be very effective, but to reach 35ss you will still need to add some models. Once you reach 35ss models though, you should be good. One of the balancing elements to Malifaux, is that you don't choose your crew until you know what you have to acheive. Some Masters have more choice to the models they can field, and so you might want extra models to be competitive in particular scenarios, but you don't have to have all the choices available. Some crews tend to work well with a more or less fixed list whereas others tend to get tweaked every game, to remain competitive. When you read some of the posts on Hamelin you will see that some players vary his crew considerably, but I think you will find that he will cope reasonably well in most match-ups with most scenarios with the models listed above (many would argue too well). One final point to bear in mind is that both Leveticus and Hamelin are Outcast Masters, but there is very little overlap in the models used in any of the Outcast crews (with the exception of the Henchman, who can play well alongside one Master each - Ophelia with Somer and Von Schill with the Viks) In comparison, two Guild boxsets, or 2 Neverborn boxsets will usually give you models that can be used with both Masters, allowing you to reach 35ss with two different Masters, and giving you some choice in crew composition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 (with the exception of the Henchman, who can play well alongside one Master each - Ophelia with Somer and Von Schill with the Viks) I have to disagree on VonBadass. The Viks might be the only Outcast master he plays well with, but he plays nice with all of the Guild masters, and some of the Arcanist and Resser masters, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0un7_z3r0 Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ok, enough of this dilly-dallying (can't believe that's an actual expression, but I do love it! I'm from Sweden btw.) I'll go for Leveticus! If I do like the game but discovers he's too much for me, then Ophelia will be my gal! Yes I've secretly loved her and her gremlin-kin from the start! But having played Orc's & Goblings in WHFB for the last 15 years or so I feel that I've already "been there done that" when it comes to crazy green skins! So in Malifaux I wanted to go where I usually don't, so to speak. So a the Desolate and the soulless box and a Desolation Engine it is! I still have a weak spot for Hamelin, but I got to start somewhere, I'll surely get him someday. Thanks a lot everyone, you have all helped me I making my decision! I hope that when I do get 5ki11z enough, I'll be able to return the favor somehow! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Good choice. Leveticus is one of the 10 crews that I run. Keep in mind, he can hire ANY construct, soulless, or undead. Without incurring any extra soulstone cost. He has this huge variety of options at his fingertips. That being said, you may want to consider picking up the Four Horsemen when Leveticus' avatar is out (Dead Rider, Hooded Rider, Pale Rider, and Mechanical Rider). Apparently, the Four Horsemen list is pretty darn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniddy Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Levvy will teach you much about the game - and the learning curve is steep but I'm loving him I was really smart I started with Marcus and now Levvy....yeh I'm getting models from EVERY faction :-D When you get the cards read them, read them again....then really get your head round the hollow waif/levvy death/re-birth cycle and how it all interacts.... Once you got you head round the basics you'll know what you want and how to branch out - some people go fairly elitist - some spam - I'm leaning towards a bit of luring them in - some rotten bells and crooked men backing up steampunks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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