Hamelin, and how do not go to hell for playing him

[Omenbringer]

Pfffft.

Put Hamelin in front of a Gremlin gun line without Bully.

Tell me how many pieces they shred him into before he activates.

Not as many as you'd think, base Df 5, The Void making cheating up a losing proposition, and of course he can easily just come back from the dead thanks to Indiscriminant Void. And with them focusing all that fire on him, those Rat swarms are going to be feasting on their bones without much resistance (and getting bigger thanks to Voracious Rats).

1. The problem here is that because of Hamelin's Voracious Rats, he needs to be in the thick of things. If you allow leaders to hit him, he is going to get destroyed by quite a few masters. He may not be the weakest master, but the masters that are weaker than him can typically stay back from the front lines.

Totally not true, as has been said the Rat Chatchers are the ones that really abuse this ability.

And he is still very difficult to take down in melee against even the likes of Lady Justice and Lilith with all the ways he can influence Fate Flips and the fact that he is designed to easily respawn anyway.

4. Why? Are Rats really doing that much more damage because of the on DMG? I don't see it.

This tells me you are not using them to full effect, the Rat Swarms dont need to do a lot of Dg with any one hit, it is the combined might of an entire swarm chipping away for (2/3/3 dg) per atack (dont forget the extra Dg that they get from any Blight counters on a model). When you get to a swarm of 5 or more around you with a Rat Catcher to kill them all and respawn new ones you are going to have to defend against 10 attacks that are more then likely at to the attack and Dg flip where cheating makes Hamelin's control hand larger (thus increasing his odds of winning).

5. No! This is the one thing, especially with suggestion 1 that would break him. As it is I lose rats from them being outside of 6". Against an average opponent, this change would not do much, but against a good opponent, who knows how to cut apart Voracious Rats when it is 6", this change would neuter Hamelin.

Hardly neuter, just make you play better (which happens to be the suggestion most Hamelin players offer for playing against him).

Another change that I could see, but do not really like that much, is to limit Nihilism to a specific range, like 12" or 14". This would prevent models from getting objectives on the other side of the board from your main force. I had a game last night where my Canine Remains were destroying evidence about 18+" from Hamelin. If my opponent sends over models to tie up the dogs (which he did), they are less things that Hamelin needs to worry about, and the dogs are no slouches when it comes to gang raping something (which they did). If they had to stay within 12" or 14" of Hamelin, to be able to destroy the evidence, it would have been a different game.

Definately agree that Nihilism should have a range, making his entire cheap crew (SS wise) lose Insignificant when either Hamelin or Nix is on the board makes everything a threat in a game based on accomplishing Objectives. How many other crews have access to 2 SS models that are significant and this easily replaceable (This should be an easy guess with my Avatar and Sig clearly visible)?

Edited November 24, 2011 by Omenbringer

[cain]

Get out of town with "frail" lol. 12 Wounds, easy 9 damage in melee

He sucks in melee when going vs targets who survive the hit. His first hit uses fate is meaningless and a high card.

9 damage, fine. And now? For the second you will get a -flip and hurt yourself in most cases.

[Necromorph]

@ Cain

Thats why you can always just use ILure for the 2nd ap to avoid that.

@ the Nihilism point.

I don't agree that it should have a range, or if it did it would have to be pretty damn huge. The issue whither being able to hire h1 and insig is in a way a means to diversify his crew selection but it can also be a hindrance. That's ALL HE HAS...and not many of his choices (aside from a rat swarm, and nix situationally) can hit worth a damn save desperate mercs and Kade. That's the point, he makes all of his piddly minions more valuable in terms of objectives.

[Sandwich]

Absolutely no range to Nihilism.

The point of this is to balance him, not cuddle him into garbage.

Of all the changes mentioned, I support a Wp duel to Bully, A CC on LMC, and a reduction in range to Voracious Rats.

I could also get behind the change to Impetuous but I honestly do not feel that it matters.

That's all he needs.

Nix improves Weak Damage, not severe. He reduces Severe by 2 and increases Weak damage by 2.

Therefore Impetuous actually stops you from getting 4-6 Damage on a :-fate:-fate flip.

(Blight, Nix, Vermin Frenzy)

Having an 18" spread on Voracious Rats is bullsh*t, period.

As to rats killing eachother, it's absolutely not a global issue, it is strictly Hamelin.

In no other case (Except McMourning/Nico killing dogs, but that's hardly broken, and I guess Grow Lists.) killing your models does not have a remotely positive effect.

We need to really look and try to Balance Hamelin.

Not cuddle him to garbage.

Pockets was listing changes as a ton of ideas to do, not an entire list of must-have cuddles.

And his suggestions are all very viable, but not all together.

[Omenbringer]

He sucks in melee when going vs targets who survive the hit. His first hit uses fate is meaningless and a high card.

9 damage, fine. And now? For the second you will get a -flip and hurt yourself in most cases.

Great time for Understand the Soulless to prevent the retalitory strike huh, and if you Sac a The Stolen this gets even more ridiculous (One Rat and a -2 to the WP resist for Understand the Soulless , that is successful on a flip of 5 of anything but requires on average a 10 to resist before cheating and the inevitable Soulstone to hype it up further). Additionally actually killing him is way more difficult then it sounds since he will just respawn in the back field next to his hidden The Stolen (you know the one he places way back of the deployment zone behind a big piece of LOS blocking Terrain), create another one then reposition to do this all again.

@ the Nihilism point.

I don't agree that it should have a range, or if it did it would have to be pretty damn huge. The issue whither being able to hire h1 and insig is in a way a means to diversify his crew selection but it can also be a hindrance. That's ALL HE HAS...and not many of his choices (aside from a rat swarm, and nix situationally) can hit worth a damn save desperate mercs and Kade. That's the point, he makes all of his piddly minions more valuable in terms of objectives.

A 12" would be a huge portion of the board, (in truth I think it should be more like 8").

Additionally the reason you dont see a lot of non-standard Hamelin lists is because his vanilla list is so much better then his other options (he has a fairly large range of models to choose from but no real synergy with any of them).

[Omenbringer]

Absolutely no range to Nihilism.

The point of this is to balance him, not cuddle him into garbage.

Nix would also provide additional coverage.

We need to really look and try to Balance Hamelin.

Not cuddle him to garbage.

Pockets was listing changes as a ton of ideas to do, not an entire list of must-have cuddles.

And his suggestions are all very viable, but not all together.

None of these are going to cuddle him into garbage, just trying balance him with the other Masters/ crews/ models out there (and any of these changes are going to be viewed as "cuddles to garbage" in the same way that the "Alp Bomb" and "Filth List" fixes have been, no one likes their "easy buttons" taken away afterall).

[cain]

Additionally actually killing him is way more difficult then it sounds since he will just respawn in the back field next to his hidden The Stolen (you know the one he places way back of the deployment zone behind a big piece of LOS blocking Terrain), create another one then reposition to do this all again.

Why do players think respawning far back is any advantage?

Clever positioning to get where your strategies are, yes. But just back where you startet?

If Hamelin needs to get run back into action he wastes actions. Which he needs for calling stolen, make models insignificant and whatever.

Ca 4 is very bad when trying to make an important model (one with use ss) insignificant. Low on ss, low on hand cards, its not Leveticus who gets a new hand when dying.

And most important, this leaves his crew without the additional rat aura support.

Dunno if its just my local group but when i face Kirai, Dreamer, Guild with Ryle the rat catchers die. A lot. Without the safety of Hamelins aura your crew melts away. Players ignored him because of the "he comes back anyway" until the Kirai player thought, lets slingshot a Shikome in Hamelins face, and wondered how easily he died. Ok, maybe Kirai is one of the worsed opponents to fight against.

Nix would also provide additional coverage.

When i field him hes the first (dead) target. Obviously, because the rest of the crew respawns somehow.

Regarding the changes to Bully, why its working against Size 1 models? Fluff thing i think.

Its not a protection for Hamelin, he cannot make models size 1. So deleting this would Gremlins give a chance to fight.

[Omenbringer]

Why do players think respawning far back is any advantage?

Clever positioning to get where your strategies are, yes. But just back where you startet?

If Hamelin needs to get run back into action he wastes actions. Which he needs for calling stolen, make models insignificant and whatever.

Because hiding the Stolen in the back field pretty much assures that he will be around when Hamelin dies. Additionally this will be only one of his The Stolen on the field to respawn by (think of this as the emergency Stolen).

Also it's not like he doesn't have fast to compensate for the 1 AP to create an new The Stolen (since the slow penality for summoning doesn't carry over to the next turn) before running 10" up field or moving 5" then casting a spell at Rg 12 (17" threat range is pretty decent wouldn't you say).

Ca 4 is very bad when trying to make an important model (one with use ss) insignificant. Low on ss, low on hand cards, its not Leveticus who gets a new hand when dying.

And most important, this leaves his crew without the additional rat aura support.

He is definately not Leveticus but I would say even better at compensating for the lack of a draw phase. He has the Void, and Abandoned Soul (which can be used up to 3 times per turn for 6 Cards, 6 Wds healed and if using The Stolen as the sacrifice, 3 Malifaux Rats and if the enemy is close enough inflicting a -2 Wp), and of course the Obedient Wench can give him another card per turn for 1 AP with Blind Dedication.

He is also way more survivable then Leveticus because he doesn't have to be within a certain range of his key model to resurrect and he can have as many of them as he wants (Leveticus can only have 2 Hollow Waif's and they have to be within 10" of him thanks to Empty Shell and cant do anything if they activate after Leveticus has died thanks to Psychic Control).

The -4 to his CA (which he only incurs once) still gives him a 50% chance to successfully cast Understand the Soulless, 60% to cast Bleeding Disease, 38% chance to cast Obedience and a 31% chance to cast Irrisistible Lure, not to mention he still has an above average attack. Couple all this with the ability to postively influence or ignore fate flips for a 0 Action (Fate is Meaningless or Useless Toy) and a sidekick that can impose flips on his intended targets with an easy way of reducing the WP resists to his spells and you still have a pretty competitve Master (even after his 1st death).

The Voracious Rats ability on him is really just icing on the cake (since the Rat Catchers are the ones that really ramp up it's effectiveness) as it enhances his survivability by blocking charge lanes (unless you have more then 1 , 30mm rat base is 1.18") and providing an easy method of rendering him untargetable by the really nasty things that can hurt him in melee (Overrun by Vermin being realtively easy to cast with a flip).

Dunno if its just my local group but when i face Kirai, Dreamer, Guild with Ryle the rat catchers die. A lot. Without the safety of Hamelins aura your crew melts away. Players ignored him because of the "he comes back anyway" until the Kirai player thought, lets slingshot a Shikome in Hamelins face, and wondered how easily he died. Ok, maybe Kirai is one of the worsed opponents to fight against.

Perhaps Magicpockets will shed some light on how to dispatch these bad matchups, as in a previous thread he was able to win a UK tourney despite facing these two crews run by experienced players (both with and against Hamelin) that used purpose built anti-Hamelin lists.

When i field him hes the first (dead) target. Obviously, because the rest of the crew respawns somehow.

He should be one of the priority targets however, it really does take a lot to kill Nix in 1 turn giving his built in defenses (Spirit reducing damage from physical attacks by half, Magic Resistance 2 taking alot of the bite out of the magic attacks, The Sweet Taste of Failure for easy out of activation healing, Emptiness for imposing flips, and of course Drink Spirit to further nueter a strong threat with flips while giving him flips for resists).

Regarding the changes to Bully, why its working against Size 1 models? Fluff thing i think.

Its not a protection for Hamelin, he cannot make models size 1. So deleting this would Gremlins give a chance to fight.

Gremlins aren't the only Ht 1 models that are affected by this, a lot of crews have key Ht 1 models that cant target him (Pandora's crew being a good example).

[magicpockets]

Few things but without quotes to stop a mega post!

I like the idea of nihilism having a range - kinda like the range of his influence on the swarm (and Nix's) and gives people a chance to cuddle part of it by killing one of Nix or Hamelin rather than it being "all or nothing"

Re against certain models -

Kirai

===

This isn't so bad as my recent game against Ratty showed.

cuddle shikome (who seems to always take prey against Hamelin or Nix) with spells by either making them insignificant if they're attacking Hamelin or the one where they have to target Hamelin if they prey on Nix.

JackDaw is fairly easy to neutralise with a careful combination of Nix and a sorrow (Nix to put him on a so he can't get his aura up and after he's activated you can paralyse him with a sorrow as the resist is again on a to cuddle him for the next turn)

And Hamelin can take Kirai down. Use I/ Lure to pull the Seshin away from her and then charge her or shoot her with Fate is meaningless in there. Once she susses that she'll spend the entire game doing swirl spirits just to get away from you

Lastly remember Canine Remains are your friend as they don't take terrifying tests.

Dreamer

======

I've found the trick here is to keep together and turtle against him using Nix for the :-ive flips, Hamelin to eat face (1 hit kill on a teddy anyone?), and also obeying his big hitters to kill stolen is a nice trick as you get to cheat the duel to paralyse them (sorrows are nice for the extra cast if you link them to Hamelin). Re LCB, let him attack Hamelin as I've found as long as he hasn't got a hand full of high onslaught cards he really struggles to do 12 wds in 3AP, although you DO need 8ss (plus 3 from a Drain souls action can be useful) to win resist duels and prevent damage.

Also, obedience against Daydreams is nice as they have a (1) sacrifice action they can take (and no matter what people say, there's nothing in the book which stops you making them take it only "obey" has this rule)

---

And Sandwich is right about Nix's buff, forgot it was on weak. But still stands that the extra wound across 5+ rats hitting you is a bit much!

Another needed change is Nix's healing - it needs to be when an enemy model loses a duel he gains wounds back (it's currently "any" model). Too many times I've been bad and had rats hit each other next to Nix to heal him up

[Sandwich]

I like the idea of nihilism having a range - kinda like the range of his influence on the swarm (and Nix's) and gives people a chance to cuddle part of it by killing one of Nix or Hamelin rather than it being "all or nothing"

Actually kinda sold me on that.

But if you do put a range on it, the Rat Catchers need to have Nihilism too.

Because otherwise Hamelin wouldn't be able to do anything but make sure he was following the swarm all willy nilly.

And if the Rat Catchers have Nihilism, it could easily have a 4" range to be in line with, you know, a 4" Voracious Rats.

[magicpockets]

Actually kinda sold me on that.

But if you do put a range on it, the Rat Catchers need to have Nihilism too.

Because otherwise Hamelin wouldn't be able to do anything but make sure he was following the swarm all willy nilly.

And if the Rat Catchers have Nihilism, it could easily have a 4" range to be in line with, you know, a 4" Voracious Rats.

Not sure if I like it as would force people to have Rat Catchers, but I'm very aware that may be my bias (as I rarely run rat catchers) rater than it being a bad idea. Gut feeling is just keeping it Hamelin and Nix would be better but with a 12" range or something, the less rules changes the better

[Omenbringer]

A 12 covers a very large portion of the board, and with Hamelin and Nix both possessing it there would be very little that wasn't covered.

[Keegantir]

A 12 covers a very large portion of the board, and with Hamelin and Nix both possessing it there would be very little that wasn't covered.

Which is why I believe that it is a good suggestion. It is a change that brings his power level down some, but does not cripple him, as some of the other suggestions would (like 4" Voracious Rats). I was thinking more like 14 , but 12 would not be too far, I think. Anything less than 12 would cripple him though. One thing is that this only affects schemes and strategies that insignificant models cannot interact with. The biggest thing that this will do is prevent swarm lists from covering the whole board taking objectives, but will instead limit the action to within 14" of Hamelin and/or Nix.

As far as the range on Voracious Rats, I don't think there is anything that anyone can say that will convince me that reducing Voracious Rats to 4" would be a good change. As I said, keeping within 6" is hard enough, especially against a good opponent that knows how to take out Rat Catchers, if it is reduced to 4" Hamelin is going to be reduced to a level below Levi and Viks.

I will also restate that I believe that Nix's to flips is a global issue. There are multiple models that give a to all flips, thus a slight change in the rules to say that SS flips ignore twists will fix that better than changing all of the models that do it.

As far as the to DMG from Impetuous, I think people overestimate a positive twist on DMG with rats. Each positive twist with Rats is only about .25 extra damage per attack, on average. That averages out to 1-2 extra damage a turn. Take it or leave it, it is not doing that much.

Bully not affecting masters is something that I don't like, but I could deal with. I am still undefeated when playing my Viks against Hamelin, and the only thing that has given me trouble is when my Sword Vik gets made insignificant. Take that away and I will have little to no problem with Hamelin.

[Omenbringer]

The biggest thing that this will do is prevent swarm lists from covering the whole board taking objectives, but will instead limit the action to within 14" of Hamelin and/or Nix.

So only 28" of a 30" board (assuming standard Deployment zone and only Hamelin) would insure that swarm lists couldn't cover the whole board stealing objectives? I think you underestimate how large that aura actually is.

As far as the range on Voracious Rats, I don't think there is anything that anyone can say that will convince me that reducing Voracious Rats to 4" would be a good change. As I said, keeping within 6" is hard enough, especially against a good opponent that knows how to take out Rat Catchers, if it is reduced to 4" Hamelin is going to be reduced to a level below Levi and Viks.

Once again I am find it hard to believe that your Rat Catchers are falling this easy as well, with the Rats base blocking around him he is protected from melee attacks. Additionally, by hiding a few Rats safely behind him the Rat Catchers shouldn't be losing their Armor 2 to things like :auras , , and :blasts (since there are very few of these that can cover enough real estate to eradicate all of them). They are very durable for a 5 SS model (that can be easily replced once killed by the sacing of 3 easily replaced "free" models).

Additionally the 6 is one of the best ways of countering summoning crews because it doesn't allow the dropping of counters or the summoning of any other models within this distance. Having up to 3 models that can each deny 1 foot of the board is a very nasty thing for these crews.

As far as the to DMG from Impetuous, I think people overestimate a positive twist on DMG with rats. Each positive twist with Rats is only about .25 extra damage per attack, on average. That averages out to 1-2 extra damage a turn. Take it or leave it, it is not doing that much.

When viewed in a vacum it may not seem like much at first (only 25% increase on a random flip), however what you have failed to take into account is the increased potential to cheat the damage flip (Each Rat can now cheat the Damage when succeeding by only 1-5 instead of needing to preserve a 6-10 advantage in the duel). This dramatically increases their potential damage on key models.

Bully not affecting masters is something that I don't like, but I could deal with. I am still undefeated when playing my Viks against Hamelin, and the only thing that has given me trouble is when my Sword Vik gets made insignificant. Take that away and I will have little to no problem with Hamelin.

A Master shouldn't be able to be made insignificant (there are a few models this revision will effect), after all it is why they are in charge of the crew right?

Also I am rather curious to see some Battle reports for your Viktoria's vs Hamelin games. I have a local player that would greatly appreciate some tactics/ crew builds that actually work consistantly against Hamelin.

Keep in mind that I have played with and aginast Hamelin for longer then most (along with some of the Hamelin players that are suggesting these changes, Magicpockets and Sandwich).

[Keegantir]

I do not have time to answer everything right now, but on your first point, it is a 36" board (many objectives are in deployment zones), and covering 28" of it requires being in the center of the board, which happens less than 50% of the time in my opinion. If you can force your opponent to not reach the center, than his 14" is not going to reach the objectives back by your deployment zone. Once again, I am not going for neutering Hamelin, but toning him down slightly by making him worry about overall board positioning.

As far as rats go, who cheats on dmg with Rats? As much as Hamelin is card starved, are you going to waste a card to do one more dmg? Also, it is not a 25% increase on the flip, it is a 0.25 damage increase (0.28 to be exact and that is only when going from a strait flip to a , any other twist change is less than that).

For a damage profile of 2/3/3

:-fate:-fate: 2.28, :-fate: 2.4, Strait: 2.62, :+fate: 2.9, :+fate:+fate: 2.92

Edited November 25, 2011 by Keegantir

[Omenbringer]

I do not have time to answer everything right now, but on your first point, it is a 36" board (many objectives are in deployment zones)...

How often do you have objectives in both deployment zones? If you find this a regular occurence then you need to be more selective of your Scheme choices and make sure they support your Strategy.

...and covering 28" of it requires being in the center of the board, which happens less than 50% of the time in my opinion. If you can force your opponent to not reach the center, than his 14" is not going to reach the objectives back by your deployment zone.

We have some vastly different play experiences, in the years I have played this game controlling/ contesting the center has occured virtually every game (except in a few rare situations). If Hamelin/Nix have an that is so large they don't have to worry about positioning then there is zero point to actually assigning a limit.

Once again, I am not going for neutering Hamelin, but toning him down slightly by making him worry about overall board positioning.

As I have said numerous times, I am not for neutering him either (I actually love his fluff), but he does need some substantial changes to be brought into line with the vast majority of Masters/ crews/ models. He really is way above most of the rest of the pack (Relative balance should be the goal). For the record, there are a few others that I believe need some retooling to be brought into line with what's released as well (and not just from Rising Powers either). Lastly, any change to a models rules is going to be viewed as a cuddle by his fans.

As far as rats go, who cheats on dmg with Rats? As much as Hamelin is card starved, are you going to waste a card to do one more dmg? Also, it is not a 25% increase on the flip, it is a 0.25 damage increase (0.28 to be exact and that is only when going from a strait flip to a , any other twist change is less than that).

For a damage profile of 2/3/3

:-fate:-fate: 2.28, :-fate: 2.4, Strait: 2.62, :+fate: 2.9, :+fate:+fate: 2.92

He is hardly card starved, he has numerous ways to get them easily (to advantage in most cases) and his crew rarely needs to cheat anyway because of all the ways they can influence fate (however when attacking an opponents lynchpin model, I cheat to high hell with them if it means killing it).

Additionally it's not so much a function of just the extra point of damage but of the quantity of cards being flipped and the number of attacks that can are being generated (this is a main tenant of virtually all the gremlin tactics and of course the philosophy of the Imperial Guard from Warhammer 40k), a small swarm of Rats (only 3) can cycle thru a quarter of the deck in their 6 attacks (across the 2 activations) before even considering damage flips. Usable Severe Damage flips are going to come up often enough in this situation (especially since they retain a straight flip in most cases while succeeding by only 1 point in the attack duel). Also of note is the fact that you are pretty much guaranteed to inflict at least 2 Wds on any given model with a successful hit (even those with Armor since the extra Wound from the Blight Counter isn't reduced by it and the lowest damage can be reduced by Armor is 1 Dg unless you flipped the Black Joker. Object is the only real protection against a Blight Counters extra Wd since it reduces Wds not Dg).

At any rate I think we have pretty much arrived at the same point as the last Hamelin thread...hopefully the renewed interest in re-balancing will motivate the Wyrd crew to do something about it.

[magicpockets]

Keegantir, I can't help but feel you may not really have got to grips with Hamelin just yet, so many of the things you're afraid to change because they would "cripple" him are not so life or death.

He does need changing to bring him in line with other Masters and so far I can't see one single place where you've suggested how to do this. Instead all you're seeming to do is complain against every suggestion put forward.

Remember this conversation is only about giving Wyrd some ideas of what we think and holds no weight in the grand scheme of things, they make make some of the changes, they may make other changes, or they may make no changes at all - so don't worry about admitting he's way too powerful and give ideas for how to bring him into line.

Lastly, to pick up on your "card starved" point I think you're not getting his mechanic properly, how to force people to cheat to give you the cards you need from your discard pile and when to use his draw 2 cards ability - I regularly table people with my Hamelin crew and play with schemes picked at random or by my opponent and never have a card issue - I've often got more than 6 cards in my hand, usually up to 13 or so!

HOWEVER - bear in mind none of this is a personal attack against you, we're (well I know I am) are just disagreeing with you.

[cain]

Lastly, to pick up on your "card starved" point I think you're not getting his mechanic properly, how to force people to cheat to give you the cards you need from your discard pile and when to use his draw 2 cards ability - I regularly table people with my Hamelin crew and play with schemes picked at random or by my opponent and never have a card issue - I've often got more than 6 cards in my hand, usually up to 13 or so!

Hes not alone with this.

In general it works until round 3/4. Then my high cards are gone, some crap left and you dont get much new ones.

Usually i have max one good card per turn.

You can learn trying to force cheating, but your opponents learn too. My opponents look at the discard pile and "Oh, ill cheat again only if this card is covered", so you dont get to pick it up. They do not save a model by cheating and give me a card to kill another.

And how can you afford sacrificing models to get cards? I usually need the kids for the spells, the rats for damage und Hamelins actions anyway for kids supply and make insignificant models.

Its not that iam loosing games with Hamelin (worst was a draw), but its not so easy as someone could imagine after reading the OMG Hamelin complain threads.

[magicpockets]

Re cards -

1. ALWAYS take the wretch, that extra one card is invaluable each turn and it's a good activation stall if you need it. For comparison Collette spends 2ss to get 4 cards whereas the wretch can hide at the back and usually give you 6+ cards for 2ss.

2. Don't be scared of sacrificing a Stolen or rat for two cards with one of your AP - one of the best things I realised with Hamelin is to learn to play him with only 2AP as normal and then have the (+1) Fast AP free for summoning kids, getting cards etc.

3. Re forcing to cheat, try and get used to watching for opportunities to recycle cards. If you're losing a duel and can push it to a win with a 6 (for example) and there's a 7+ on your discard pile then cheat it in. Chances are the 6 is useless to you anyway and you either win the duel or recycle for a higher card - win:win really.

4. Also re forcing cheats, if you have a high card on your discard pile go for something valuable with your next AP so your opponent is forced to protect it. Either you're opponent won't cheat to avoid giving you the card and you hit the defender, or they have to cheat and you get to pick up the card. This is the SINGLE most important thing to get second nature with Hamelin's card mechanic (in my opinion obviously!)

And remember, your "in play" cards (i.e. the ones in the duel) cannot be picked up - in effect you should have your fate deck, an "in play" pile, and your discard pile. I've seen people miss high cards on their discard pile because they're putting the cards from the next duel on top during before it's been resolved.

[Keegantir]

Magicpockets, I know that this is just a friendly discussion, and I have not seen anything here that is even remotely close to an attack. I am just enjoying the discussion. People have different play styles, and I know that I am not as experienced with Hamelin as many of you are. I just want to put my thoughts into the mix.

I want to say that I acknowledge that Hamelin is powerful. With that said, if he is the strongest master, it is not by much over Pandora, Dreamer, and Kirai.

I have not complained against every suggestion put forth, only the reduction to Voracious Rats, and the cuddle to Bully.

For the change to Impetuous, I was only pointing out that it does not change Rats damage as much as people think it does. One thing that the on damage does do, is that it increases the chances that a high card is on the top of the discard.

For Nix, I was pointing out that it is a global issue with the game, as more than just Nix has that effect, and fixing it globally would be a better option.

For making Malifaux Citizen a cast, I agreed.

I agree that a change needs to be made to stop an infinite turn, though I still think a global change would be better, like a turn time limit. Turn time limits work very well in other games.

I even included suggestions, like putting a limiting range on Nihilism. While I would prefer a 14" range, I no longer think that 12" would be too low, after reading other people's comments.

I also suggested that Void be made a draw from the top of the deck only. No one has really talked about this so I do not know how others feel about it. I will point out one thing about high cards on the top of the discard. This game is not played in a vacuum, and a good opponent with do a less important action, while you have a high card on top, thus burying that high card.

After reading what people are saying in this thread, I am starting to be ok with the suggested Bully change, but I still cannot agree with the suggested Voracious Rats change. That is the one change suggested that I feel does not bring Hamelin down a little, to put him in line with other top tier masters, but instead brings him down below that level. I have said it multiple times that I believe that that change would reduce him to a level below Levi and Viks.

[Omenbringer]

I want to say that I acknowledge that Hamelin is powerful. With that said, if he is the strongest master, it is not by much over Pandora, Dreamer, and Kirai.

Throw in Lilith and Colette and you have my list of crews that need rebalancing. And yes Hamelins current form is above them by quite a bit.

For the change to Impetuous, I was only pointing out that it does not change Rats damage as much as people think it does. One thing that the on damage does do, is that it increases the chances that a high card is on the top of the discard.

I have already pointed out why this is a potent ability. Preserving the ability to cheat when only succeeding by 1 point in the duel means a lot (It is the difference between killing off a model or having to risk another Rats activation to attempt to finish it off).

I agree that a change needs to be made to stop an infinite turn, though I still think a global change would be better, like a turn time limit. Turn time limits work very well in other games.

I definately agree with this one, The Infinite Skeeter activation is dirty.

I also suggested that Void be made a draw from the top of the deck only. No one has really talked about this so I do not know how others feel about it. I will point out one thing about high cards on the top of the discard. This game is not played in a vacuum, and a good opponent with do a less important action, while you have a high card on top, thus burying that high card.

I think this will actually change his play style more then any of the other suggestions (read as huge cuddle), play Misaki for a bit and see how situational (read as virtually useless) her Foresight ability is (it is similar enough to what you are suggesting).

After reading what people are saying in this thread, I am starting to be ok with the suggested Bully change, but I still cannot agree with the suggested Voracious Rats change. That is the one change suggested that I feel does not bring Hamelin down a little, to put him in line with other top tier masters, but instead brings him down below that level. I have said it multiple times that I believe that that change would reduce him to a level below Levi and Viks.

I hate the "Top Tier" argument, everything should be relatively balanced, that is the purpose of good playtesting (and I am sorry to admit that some things slipped thru that need to be addressed). Unfortunately rebalancing is a necessary evil of all games (especially ones that want to endure in the small and highly competitive marketplace).

Additionally, having played with and against Hamelin for a long time myself, I strongly disagree that these changes would reduce him below the power level of either Levi or the Viks. Even if most of these were enacted, his playstyle would change very little it would only require more thoughtful play (instead of the current "Easy Button" that he has now).

[Necromorph]

Basically, the infinite turn is a dick move, they need to make it so that they don't come back off of other rats attacks, simple fix and allows other crews with obey and such to eliminate some rats.

An issue I have is when you start messing with a masters core mechanics.

You want to change some wording on abilities, fine, but once you start messing with a masters code mechanics, that's a sure fire way to see a master fall apart and be easily exploited.

- I think changing bully to have a clause like "Gremlins without the insignificant characteristic are not effected," would be nice.

- Emptiness not effecting SS flips is good.

- Impetuous only effecting attack flips is good.

- Making lure citizen a spell.

Stuff like that, which we've already mentioned. Once you start messing with the core wording of things like Nihilism, Bully and Voracious Rats, I predict things going downhill quickly.

[Omenbringer]

Basically, the infinite turn is a dick move, they need to make it so that they don't come back off of other rats attacks, simple fix and allows other crews with obey and such to eliminate some rats.

That may fix the Rats but does nothing for the Skeeters unless you add something else that may effect the Rat Catchers in a very unintended way (and yes I agree using it is a huge dick move).

[Thechosenone]

That may fix the Rats but does nothing for the Skeeters unless you add something else that may effect the Rat Catchers in a very unintended way (and yes I agree using it is a huge dick move).

Not to get off topic but what's the Infinite Skeeter exactly? I know it's a Somer move and i heard that it was kinda of something broken from ages ago? Is it still done and what's the play look like?

[Omenbringer]

The infinite Skeeter activation is definately still viable (though most of us dont play it). It requires 1 skeeter and a friendly model within 2". The Skeeter activates and uses the All action Larva on the friendly model creating another Skeeter (which is is a "new" model and has Slow) that Skeeter then activates and uses Larva on the skeeter that has already gone, creating another "new Skeeter" to continue the cycle over and over (It works because you can still use an All action even if you are Slow).

It is a very dirty tactic and one that will usually lead to your opponent leaving mid game to do something else (though it is not as dirty as what it lead to before the fixes, can you say infinite Red Joker draw!).