Auto Damage

[Spudstarch]

So the last two games of Puppet Wars have been really anti climactic all because of auto damage. I thought one of the tag lines for the card system was to "Cheat fate", having the option to throw down the right card to get out of a sticky situation. So what is the deal with the Ice Golem?

If my opponent has the right suite in hand, it doesn't matter if I have the red joker and 4 kings in my hand, I can't hope to stop it. And with a threat range of 5 including moves, it provides so much board control. Most puppets can't even get within striking distance with one activation. I already got the sense that auto damage in Malifaux was bad enough and thought it would be avoided in Puppet Wars. In Malifaux where one successful casting of an auto damage spell only took off around 10% of your master's life, Puppet Wars makes even more apparent how unbalanced it can be when one casting can take out 33% to 50% of a puppets life.

At least make auto damage abilities non-cheatable. That would at least help level the playing field. If I cannot drop a card to dodge it, my opponent should not be able to drop a card to auto hit.

Anyone else get the sense that auto damage is just not entertaining?

[karn987]

So the last two games of Puppet Wars have been really anti climactic all because of auto damage. I thought one of the tag lines for the card system was to "Cheat fate", having the option to throw down the right card to get out of a sticky situation. So what is the deal with the Ice Golem?

If my opponent has the right suite in hand, it doesn't matter if I have the red joker and 4 kings in my hand, I can't hope to stop it. And with a threat range of 5 including moves, it provides so much board control. Most puppets can't even get within striking distance with one activation. I already got the sense that auto damage in Malifaux was bad enough and thought it would be avoided in Puppet Wars. In Malifaux where one successful casting of an auto damage spell only took off around 10% of your master's life, Puppet Wars makes even more apparent how unbalanced it can be when one casting can take out 33% to 50% of a puppets life.

At least make auto damage abilities non-cheatable. That would at least help level the playing field. If I cannot drop a card to dodge it, my opponent should not be able to drop a card to auto hit.

Anyone else get the sense that auto damage is just not entertaining?

That's a tag line of Malifaux to be specific, not Puppet Wars

But it exists to give another way of dealing damage because there will be enough Puppets out there with superior defensive abilities that make normal attacking difficult to near impossible. Basically take a look at the system and how simple and collapsed it is compared to Malifaux. The game is meant to be more brutal and it favors the aggressor.

If the Ice Golem is giving you trouble, then tear it apart That is the basic answer to anything you will run into. If a puppet is causing you a lot of damage, kill it. It's not that hard. But that auto damage exists specifically to be a counter to heavily defensive Puppets and stocked hands etc.

But it doesn't hit harder then a normal attack, in fact with upgrades on your puppets it will hit lighter then them. He Ice Blasters you for 1? Have Nino ping him for 2 with his action. Or run a Hooded Rider down his throat, etc. There are a number of ways to deal with it and his raw damage capacity pales in comparison to some other puppets like Nino etc.Basically, because the board is so small, and there is enough stuff to block LOS, you should not be pinned down by 1 puppet with a ranged damage ability. Are you using a particularly open board?

Remember, this is much more of a resource management game then Malifaux. Those tombs that are being burned to do Ice Blaster won't be coming back till their deck is emptied. I know from experience how heavily this can really impact 1 trick Puppets like the Ice Golem. Heck if their running even another Puppet with a Tomb driven ability it becomes a big competition.

Basically, I see what your saying. But all that is balanced out by the resource management aspects of the game. If they've got great control of their resources and are lucky enough to get the tombs into their hand, then the Ice Golem will do wonderfully! But just as often, they will be starved for tombs to use for actions and they simply won't be able to do it. It's not just the player pressing and button and you taking damage, that layer of resource control is also there. See what I'm saying? It's not unbalanced, it's actually very balanced. Puppets take rips and die, it's part of the game. This is a fast paced, brutal game where you can't expect your Puppets to stay alive long. So they auto-damage you, they will always be paying a good price for that action and you can just rip them right back. See what I'm saying?

Edited November 16, 2011 by karn987

[Ratty]

You can shut down the ice Golem it multiple ways. put models in to block LoS and his movement, this quickly will lower his effective range.

Dodge with tomes a lot, then he will have to make the hard decision to cheat the tome to hit you or save it for the ice golem.

And finally keep models ready that can jump the Ice Golem and kill it.

[Headcase2]

The Ice Golem isn't too bad actually, in my experience. There's at least half a dozen models out there that can be far more lethal (Pokey Victoria, Hooded Rider, Rusty Alyce, Bête Noir, Joss, or my personal favourite: Nino with some claws and maybe a rad sword too). And if you don't like the Golem, throw some activations at it and it will soon be reduced to just a box of snow.

As a side note: you can throw a snowball with a low tome too, if you just cheat in a second card of 8 or higher (if your initial flip didn't make the 8+ already). And since it's a free action you can do it by dumping your card - I once killed a master by by cheating in a two for activation and tossing a snowball, well before he could scamper back to safety.

[Spudstarch]

I hear what you all are saying and here is my counter points:

@Headcase: The puppets you listed are Sidekick level so they should be badass. An Ice Golem is a pawn. You can have 3 and 2 badass sidekicks, granted 2 Golems should be plenty. Your added note strengthens my argument that this ability is broken. It isn't even an attack! When your opponent needs a higher AR card to send a badass sidekick to deal with a pawn, you can drop a deuce and shoot them before they come at you all without the sacrifice of ripping itself.

@Ratty: I can't dodge with a tome. The ability doesn't permit it. If you are moving to block line of sight, that is giving your opponent board control. You don’t have to activate the Golem, you just need him to stand somewhere to be affective. And if you send someone to "jump" him, it better have a gun. It will be too far away to hit with a stick and if you hit it with a stick and kill it, it severely damage its attacker from the other auto damage ability, guaranteed.

@Karn: As mentioned above, it is difficult to deal with since it will be out of range of most puppets’ attacks, Pawns especially. Tearing it apart is easier said than done, especially with three wounds.

You give Nino, a sidekick as an example, but his action is not free and requires you to hit at a lower combat value, chances are you will have to cheat a card to hit the golemn much like a golem will have to cheat a card to Ice Blaster. The differences being that one puppet is pawn ranking, one of the actions is free, and one can bypass a red joker. To me that looks like 3-0 Ice Golem over Nino.

Regarding high defense there are far better ways to make this ability deal with those situations. On a successful cast, -X to Defense to target puppet, or instead of making defense numbers higher, add suits to the value instead. This goes more in line with how the rest of the puppets do things, with two or more puppets activating and combining tricks. Ice Golem does it in one activation without needing to equip a torn puppet's items.

For stocked hands, the simplest way to get rid of a player's cards is with basic attacks that force them to dodge. The natural mechanic causes them to drop their high cards, which will not return until the deck is reshuffled. So having auto damage to deal with that issue is unnecessary and breaks one of the core mechanics of the game.

As far as resource management goes, all it takes is one Tome, 24% of the cards, and any 9+ card to be certain that you can finish off a wounded puppet. Where else can you have that level of certainty of knowing if you will rip a puppet or not? That would be the red joker, <1% of the cards. You have a puppet with an ability that Trumps THE Trump card of the game. Even if I have Nino with a bead on my opponent's 1 tear master, and a king in my hand there is still the possibility they dodge with a red joker or a suit that I just can't match. There is risk and chance and player interaction.

Mid or late game when a master has taken a few rips, at the start of a new activation round how often can you say without a doubt, "I won" before anyone activates a puppet. There is no risk and no need to hesitate. Game balance aside, that just isn't fun or exciting in my opinion. It just leaves me with an unsatisfying win or loss.

[Ratty]

I don't think you understand, You only draw so many tomes a turn, generally 1 or 2, if you can force your opponent to cheat with tomes they can't use them for the Ice Golem. A lot of the game is about hand control. Assuming that you don't have to block LoS to your Master is a silly thing to think. Screening important models is part of the tactics of the game. Watch how carefully the opponent start screening when you put pressure on him yourself, there are much worse models than the Ice Golem out there to use against your opponent. Have a look at Bad Juju action or the Mature Nephelim. Hell look at Kades Action, that is fricking awesome. Everyone has access to models that can lay down the hurt, but the more you take the more high activation models you have in your crew, and the more reliant on suits you are. If you have 2 or 3 models that use Tomes you can only use one or two of them a turn.

[Omenbringer]

Second the Hooded Rider as the best way to take down an annoying model. He has a nasty threat range and can generate wicked damage with it.

[Spudstarch]

I don't think you understand, You only draw so many tomes a turn, generally 1 or 2, if you can force your opponent to cheat with tomes they can't use them for the Ice Golem. A lot of the game is about hand control. Assuming that you don't have to block LoS to your Master is a silly thing to think. Screening important models is part of the tactics of the game. Watch how carefully the opponent start screening when you put pressure on him yourself, there are much worse models than the Ice Golem out there to use against your opponent. Have a look at Bad Juju action or the Mature Nephelim. Hell look at Kades Action, that is fricking awesome. Everyone has access to models that can lay down the hurt, but the more you take the more high activation models you have in your crew, and the more reliant on suits you are. If you have 2 or 3 models that use Tomes you can only use one or two of them a turn.

The only one that comes close to comparing to the Golem is the Nephilim. Even then, it has 4 things that put it below the Golem. It has a higher AR, the ability's range is 1/3 the distance, the casting requirement significantly higher and the action is not free.

And I understand clearly what you are saying regarding hand management. If a Tome is used to dodge, the opponent has to use a tome to make the attack go through and cause a rip. Or if not, they can use the tome through Ice blaster and cause a rip. Either way they are still trading around the same cards to cause guaranteed damage (one tome and a high card to match the casting requirement or one tome card and high card to match the dodge card dropped). Ice blaster gives the golem player the hand advantage of making their opponent discard the high tome card first, before deciding to cheat the hit. If a high Tome is dropped for dodging and all the Golem player has is a low Tome and an 8+ card, they can just wait to cause the damage as a free action should they draw a low AR card for initiative. Will it cause a rip this time? 100% positively yes.

And if the game is so much about hand control, why is it that none of the cards in the deck can stop the damage from going through? It doesn't matter if a player stacks their deck or has a great sense of card management. If their opponent draws the right card or has been holding on to it since activation 1, there is no card that can be used to stop the damage from happening. You know what card has the potential to prevent damage from the Hooded rider? I can think of 53 of them, assuming That Darn Pigeon doesn't get in the way.

And if you are sending a Sidekick like Hooded Rider to deal with one of the Golems that makes them open to being "jumped" by my Hooded Rider or Rusty Alice, even Joss would do. If the rider kills a Golem, he will be down to 2 tears. With the only a few cards in and and 1 tome, just one, the Rider will be torn apart. His Defense doesn't matter, his player's cards don't matter, and it is taken out in 1 activation sequence.

You can hope to stop the damage to your master by screening, but that makes your movement less efficient. Your opponent can gain ground/ workbenches faster and thus more cards per round (hand control)

[karn987]

@Spudstarch: Well I would like to thank you for discussing this out, but it comes down to a matter of opinion at this point. You are very much hard set against automatic damage and I understand that, I am not a fan of it myself. But this is not true automatic damage, you don't snap your fingers and it happens. How many times have you gone up against this so far? Most of the time your opponent (or you) will have trouble getting and holding onto those tombs you need for this action. If you are holding onto them all game just to make a rush at the Master near the end, then that is a perfectly valid strategy. But that takes you at least 3 Animation Rounds to bring the Master down to which I can react in hundreds of ways and handle your Ice Golem or save my Master and then handle it.

Simply put, I absolutely see where your coming from and understand your points. But I don't think you have really seen how big an impact the resource management can have on the game and an action like this. Sure there is no direct way to stop this incoming Rip, but its still only 1 Rip. It's a GREAT finisher for a hard to kill puppet like a Master or Sidekick, but it will take a bit to put a dent in a fresh Puppet. Either way, the effect vs the effictiveness of a regular attack is balanced in the Ice Blasters Action Cost. That Tomb cost adds up quickly. Your math on it, the 24% off. Remember the # of cards left in the deck and the # tombs left fluctuates throughout a turn and you will absolutely, 100% lose tombs to other actions etc where you would have wanted them for this one. I know from a lot of experience just how often this realistically happens.

It just sounds like your opponents were lucky, because even when I actively try to save up for using this or another suit specific action, inevitably my use of it will trail off quickly as I simply run out of that suite.

Also, Ice Blaster Range is within Move and Attack distance of most puppets. If you don't move after using it (ie if you walk twice up), 99% of the Puppets can catch you and hit you after that. Even if you walk away, there are plenty of Puppets with ranged attacks who can pick away at him. Then beyond that, you may just have to take an Exhausted activation on a Puppet and charge something like a pumped up Death Marshal or other pawn down his throat

This is a game of dangerous and powerful interactions where no 1 combination rules them all. For every strong thing you find, there are half a dozen other things that can deal with it. Is this a strong Pawn? Oh most definitely, but is it the Alpha-Omega? I don't think so at least.

Simply, I say keep playing more! Your opinion is absolutely valid and I'm not just trying to shunt you off. But its really not as bad as it seems and there are plenty of ways to deal with it. Maybe if you gave us more information on the games, like what was in each toybox and what board setup did you use we could discuss this better with you. But obviously you ran into 2 rough games where this dominated as you said. Well that does suck, but you should get back up on your horse and give it another go. Find the ways to deal with this as people here have been saying, they've had no more trouble with it then most anything else.

Edited November 17, 2011 by karn987

[ThePandaDirector]

Always find it interesting when I find a new puppet that's apparently broken, not being funny, this kind of debate can do a lot of good.

As a Marcus player I know a few things about tome puppets, but I've never found them overly powerful. Ice Golem is good for board control, I grant you that, but I've never really had the tomes spare to use Ice Blaster for much more than taking down tough opponents (which is pretty much all crow puppets). I've always found him a good aggresive puppet, charge in do some damage, fling some ice, then explode in their face (also makes for an interesting sex life..)

As stated, he is one puppet and while the focus on Sidekicks propably doesn't help there are plenty of ways to take him out. If I was Seamus I'd through something tough that I can raise again (Belle, Autopsy), Justice I'd think about keeping a Witchling behind whatever puppet and stitch it back up (you might waste a 6 ram but he's wasted an 8 tome), Pandora, I'd leap his snowy ass with a beefed up Silurid, swarm him, Viktoria's got her Ronin, and Marcus.. well Marcus has Ice Golems. Though that's not to say you can't mix suits up, just that every master has the right tool for the job.

The best thing you could probably do is to swap toyboxes with your opponent, try the Ice Golem out for yourself and see how effective he is. You could always try more than 2 players if you know anyone, would certainly stir things up.

I used to find quite a few puppets scary or weak, but my attitudes change as I gain experience, don't give up.

Anyway, I'm gonna keep saving my tomes for my mouldy stuffed Blue Teddy and his big appetite (he can swallow a snowman whole!).

[Tauwolf]

Great replies. I think this is a really well-designed game where almost every puppet has the chance to shine in the right situations. Also, while you are able to slightly effect your luck within the card system, sometimes a player just won't have access to the cards they need to use a great puppet like the Golem.

I see a trend in all these potential answers to the Ice Golem: play aggressive. When you really want a puppet removed, just make it happen. Puppet Wars is a brutal game and puppets will get shredded. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a pawn to remove a knight.