Rasputina, ice mirror and combat (rules questions from tourney part 3)

[Tiny]

Went like this. Raspy in combat ice gamin is out can raspy use ice mirror to shoot december's curse back into the combat. I thought no as raspy is in combat and cannot cast ranged spells and gamin is used for LoS and range.

Raspy player said he'd seen a ruling that you could on rules forums. Had a search and couldn't seem to find it anywhere.

Little help?

[Slimnoid]

Let's look at the wording.

"[...]Spells with the icon may not cast through a model in melee using Ice Mirror."

The wording would seem to imply that, so long as the Ice Gamin is itself not in combat, you could pull off such a trick. You're channeling a spell through the ice gamin; by all intents and purposes the origin point of the attack comes through the Gamin itself, since you are drawing LoS and range from the Gamin, not Rasputina.

It's quite the dirty trick and is a no-lose situation for Rapsutina; if she ends up being the target she can simply cheat it down so it doesn't go off, but if she isn't the target she's immune to the potential blast damage.

[Fading Memory]

Let's look at the wording.

"[...]Spells with the icon may not cast through a model in melee using Ice Mirror."

The wording would seem to imply that, so long as the Ice Gamin is itself not in combat, you could pull off such a trick. You're channeling a spell through the ice gamin; by all intents and purposes the origin point of the attack comes through the Gamin itself, since you are drawing LoS and range from the Gamin, not Rasputina.

It's quite the dirty trick and is a no-lose situation for Rapsutina; if she ends up being the target she can simply cheat it down so it doesn't go off, but if she isn't the target she's immune to the potential blast damage.

Raspi is still casting the spell and can't cast Decembers Curse in combat. She is just drawing line of sight form another model, bust she is still casting, and ranged strike spells cannot be cast in combat.

[Buhallin]

I'd back up Fading Memory on this one. Not begin able to Mirron through a model that's in combat is an additional limitation - it doesn't replace the restriction that you can't cast ranged attack spells while engaged.

[i_was_like_you]

Let's look at the wording.

"[...]Spells with the icon may not cast through a model in melee using Ice Mirror."

The wording would seem to imply that, so long as the Ice Gamin is itself not in combat, you could pull off such a trick. You're channeling a spell through the ice gamin; by all intents and purposes the origin point of the attack comes through the Gamin itself, since you are drawing LoS and range from the Gamin, not Rasputina.

It's quite the dirty trick and is a no-lose situation for Rapsutina; if she ends up being the target she can simply cheat it down so it doesn't go off, but if she isn't the target she's immune to the potential blast damage.

That would be fine except that:

Rules Manual, p. 50, under Spell Basics - A model casting a Spell with a http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/community/uploads/emoticons/default_Melee.png' alt=':melee'> or - - icon in its Rg, or one that requires a Resist Duel, is casting an attack Spell.

and:

Rules Manual, p. 41, under Ranged Basics - Models engaged in melee cannot make ranged attacks.

That leads me to believe the opposite is true.

Also:

Ice Mirror (at least how it's written in the book, I don't own Rasputina and the v2 stat cards are refusing to load) - This model may draw LoS and range from a friendly model with Frozen Heart within 6" when casting spells. These spells receive -3 Ca. The friendly model counts as the caster for the target model's defensive triggers.

It only states that the friendly model counts as the caster for defensive triggers. It still states that this model, Rasputina, is the one actually casting the spell.

So although it does sound like a fun thing to exploit, it doesn't look like it works that way.

[see what I get for actually citing my answers. Two other people beat me to the post.]

[eudaimon]

I was the aforementioned player, and faced with a dreamer crew about to pop up in the middle of my crew, I purposely setup so that I would have casting nodes out of combat.

I always thought that as long as the node was out of combat, you would be fine, and based on two of the quotes provided:

"The friendly model counts as the caster..." although that quote does continue to focus on the target model's defensive triggers, it does not specifially state that Raspy counts as the caster, only that Raspy may draw LOS and range from the model. This does however raise the question that Tiny brought up at the tournament - can Raspy cast at Hamelin through a Ht 1 Gamin? On balance, if we are counting the Gamin as the caster, it is an arguable point.

Secondly, there is the limitation that Slimnoid quotes, that you can't cast a ranged spell through a model in combat, even if Raspy is out of combat. The corollary to that, by implication if not actually stated, is that it is not Raspy's combat status that matters, but the combat status of the model being cast through.

Anyway, generally interested in the outcome, being able to do it probably won me the tournament, so would feel bad for my opponent if I jipped him.

Plus it means I am back to the drawingboard for dealing with the Dreamer.

[Buhallin]

"The friendly model counts as the caster..." although that quote does continue to focus on the target model's defensive triggers, it does not specifially state that Raspy counts as the caster, only that Raspy may draw LOS and range from the model.

Well, if it doesn't state that it changes who the caster is, then it would seem that the ability doesn't change who the caster is, wouldn't it?

You might also be looking at a v1 card - the v2 rule for Ice Mirror removes the part about response abilities/triggers hitting the mirror instead of Raspy. So if Raspy were to bounce a spell off a Gamin while targeting Sonnia, who resisted it with a Reflect Magic trigger, then Raspy would be the new target, not the Gamin.

This does however raise the question that Tiny brought up at the tournament - can Raspy cast at Hamelin through a Ht 1 Gamin? On balance, if we are counting the Gamin as the caster, it is an arguable point.

Raspy can target Hamelin freely even if bouncing a spell off the Gamin, because she's the one doing the casting and the targeting. The Gamin is used to measure LOS and range, nothing more.

FWIW, this was already discussed here: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22661&highlight=rasputina+hamelin

Secondly, there is the limitation that Slimnoid quotes, that you can't cast a ranged spell through a model in combat, even if Raspy is out of combat. The corollary to that, by implication if not actually stated, is that it is not Raspy's combat status that matters, but the combat status of the model being cast through.

No, it's really not. It's an additional restriction, not a replacement restriction. If I can't use the pool on weekends, telling you that you can't use the pool on weekends doesn't imply that I can.

You're consistently trying to read things into the rule that simply aren't there. Do what the rule says, nothing more. Does the rule say you change who is considered the caster? No. Does it say it allows you to violate the "No casting while in melee" restriction? No. So, it doesn't change those things.

Anyway, generally interested in the outcome, being able to do it probably won me the tournament, so would feel bad for my opponent if I jipped him.

Hate to say it, but it sounds like you jipped him.

[Ozz]

It says earlier in the thread, that Raspy casts through the selected model with Frozen Heart at Minus 3 casting.

Translates to Raspy casts at Ca 4 from a different place, still her having to concentrate on the spell and not get a fist to the face whilst she does it. So i don't see her being able to cast through a model out of combat when she is, however, it is still her casting so she should have no issues casting on Hamelin, as someone else has already said before me:)

[Mergoth]

A most emphatic "no" to bouncing shots back into combat.

[i_was_like_you]

As they've said, you jipped him. Rasputina remains the caster; therefore, she cannot cast any spells, either directly, or through ice mirror.

Next time consider having her totem out of combat so it may cast one of her spells into it. Or, if possible, use an action to walk Rasputina out of combat and then have her fire spells back into it. Be sure to save high cards to prevent the disengaging strike(s) from stopping her in her tracks (her low defense is especialy problematic here). Also, consider bringing along models that can push her out of combat, as Pushes don't allow for disengaging strikes.

The Dreamer can be a tough crew to go against, but keeping him too busy to land his nightmares on your master would be well advised.