obey, command, terrifying and helpless

[Dracomax]

Saw this in another thread:

I believe the interaction works something like this -

each model has his own copy of a spell when a model casts that spell that copy may only be cast once per turn (i.e. rules on a model dont effect other models unless they state they do)

It actually seems to tie in to something a friend and I were discussing.

Could a model with terrifying use obey or (in Lucius' case) command to target a harmless creature without making a wp duel (given that terrifying ignores helpless, as per page116 of the rules manual) or does the model being commanded or obeying have to make the duel because they are not terrifying themselves?

[Fading Memory]

If a model has Terrifying and casts obey, the model does not have to pass a Wp test to cast Obey on an enemy model with Harmless. Terrifying models ignore Harmless.

In the case of Lucius, his Issue Command spell only works on friendly Elite Division or Guardsman. Friendly models never have to test for friendly models with Harmless, as Harmless states "enemy models must win..."

[Dracomax]

If a model has Terrifying and casts obey, the model does not have to pass a Wp test to cast Obey on an enemy model with Harmless. Terrifying models ignore Harmless.

In the case of Lucius, his Issue Command spell only works on friendly Elite Division or Guardsman. Friendly models never have to test for friendly models with Harmless, as Harmless states "enemy models must win..."

I'm sorry, what I meant was...well, let's give an example. say I wanted to target Baby Kade with a gaurdman. could Lucius command him to attack, or would the gaurdsman need to make the wp duel to attack the helpless Baby Kade?

[Hatchethead]

It is still the Guardsman making the attack, so I assume he would have to pass the Harmless duel. I don't think Lucius' ability to ignore it is transferred via his command.

[Dracomax]

It is still the Guardsman making the attack, so I assume he would have to pass the Harmless duel. I don't think Lucius' ability to ignore it is transferred via his command.

and that's where the argument came up. it's lucius' spell and ap, so we could really see both possibilities.

[Hatchethead]

and that's where the argument came up. it's lucius' spell and ap, so we could really see both possibilities.

Indeed, but the Issue Command specifically states that "a friendly model immediately makes a melee or ranged Strike or takes the Walk Action." This says to me that Lucius' involvement ends once the spell is cast. It simply creates a limited, out of sequence activation for the model in question. It's a limited form of Obey, really.

[FearLord]

Indeed, but the Issue Command specifically states that "a friendly model immediately makes a melee or ranged Strike or takes the Walk Action." This says to me that Lucius' involvement ends once the spell is cast. It simply creates a limited, out of sequence activation for the model in question. It's a limited form of Obey, really.

Exactly right - the spell does exactly what the spell does - makes the model in question take the action in question - that model still uses all the normal rules for performing that action...

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Harmless

Enemy models must win aWp→12 Duel when targeting this model with an attack or the Action immediately fails. Harmless ends when this model performs an Action other than the (1) Walk or (1) Pass Action. Models with the Terrifying and Ruthless Abilities ignore the Harmless Ability.

The model Lucius uses Issue Command on has to perform the Wp Duel as it is the model targeting the Harmless model.

[Dracomax]

Oh well. There goes my "somehow get the dreamer alone, then austringer him to death" idea.

Thanks for the quick answer.