Companion Effect.

[Mr_Smigs]

The key is one is replaced and one is removed it is quite a simple answer. Different from spiders so not comparable. As for the companion that I am not 100% but my guess is it is not an effect and so would not be removed.

whoa...

stop. rewind.

Companion changes the value of the model in some way,

how is it not an effect?

more specifically,

if a model is flagged by "companion" to activate, then is hit by something that "removes effects" can the option to activate be removed? (thus stalling it's activation until later)

[Buhallin]

Companion changes the value of the model in some way,

how is it not an effect?

more specifically,

if a model is flagged by "companion" to activate, then is hit by something that "removes effects" can the option to activate be removed? (thus stalling it's activation until later)

I can see both sides of this one.

Companion is not itself an effect - it allows a simultaneous activation. Very possible that once the simultaneous activation has been declared and is active, it's no longer an effect - it's done, and has just set the activation order.

Or it's possible it lingers around, and can be canceled. I'm honestly not sure which it is, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where it actually matters.

[Mr_Smigs]

Version 1: The model is "Active" when flagged with Companion

Perdita activates using companion to bring Nino with her.

Nino is near an Alp, fails his WP and recieves Slow.

Perdita Spellbreakers Nino to remove Slow....

what happens about his activation

Possibility 2: (more vague 'cause I don't have books handy to give a specific interaction)

A model (MODEL G) with an "immediately activate" or "companion" effect is listed as having to activate

another model Buries MODEL G.

Does the "immediately activate" status go with the model permitting them to continue their activation after being unbuiried,

or, because of it (or the Companion) are they counting as already activating and thus lose out on an activation?

[Mike3838]

Why is Nino taking WP tests in Perdita's activation?

Mike

[Dolomyte]

Why is Nino taking WP tests in Perdita's activation?

Mike

Mike is correct, the way companion works now, I think, who really knows at this point, is that Nino would not take the test until his activation. So its a moot point

[TimeLapse]

Mike is correct, the way companion works now, I think, who really knows at this point, is that Nino would not take the test until his activation. So its a moot point

Well let's say je had slow from something else beforhand or he could even be paralyzed and you wanted to compaion and spell break. What then?

[Mr_Smigs]

Well let's say je had slow from something else beforhand or he could even be paralyzed and you wanted to compaion and spell break. What then?

there you go, more general, same question. thanks for clearing that up TimeLapse.

this is part of that "how companion afflicts a model" comes into play...

if they're considered "activated" (not an Effect) why Doesn't Nino take an Alp Test?

if they're not considered "activated" how does this play out with regards to effects?

[Ciaran]

Well let's say je had slow from something else beforhand or he could even be paralyzed and you wanted to compaion and spell break. What then?

Perdita would activate, Spellbreak Nino, then finish her activation. Nino would then take his activation, testing for whatever he needed to test for, including Willpower checks.

Perdita doesn't "activate, then companion Nino." They use Companion to activate in the same block of alternating activations, then resolve everything they need to resolve at their individual activations. It's called simultaneous, it's obviously not as whatever player resolves whatever companioned models one at a time, reacting to the current conditions on the battlefield.

[FearLord]

Companion is an effect. I've no idea why people would not consider it to be so...

[Mike3838]

Ciaran's explanation sounds reasonable to me. Companion kicks in before both models activate, and causes them to activate simultaneously. It's only by a practicality that their activations are then played out sequentially.

Nino is already committed to activating when Perdita starts her activation. It depends whether you consider "The state of being currently activated" to be an effect generally. I wouldn't say it was.

Mike

[Q'iq'el]

more specifically,

if a model is flagged by "companion" to activate, then is hit by something that "removes effects" can the option to activate be removed? (thus stalling it's activation until later)

I think you have to consider if the effect is immediate or lasting first.

Even if something is an effect, it doesn't mean it is removable in any way. It must be lasting for it.

In my personal opinion, this is an immediate effect. You declare Simultaneous activation and at that point all the declared models are already activated. They only execute their activations in certain order, for practical reasons (which is why Niño would test for Smother when he activates and not when Simultaneous activation is declared) but it cannot be removed from them.

If we're talking about situations, where a spell or talent gives another model "companion (X)" ability, then it is a lasting effect that can be removed, but removing it would affect the model only if you do it before it uses the ability to Simultaneously Activate (Activation itself is not an effect, after all. It is a game mechanic of a higher level. An effect may grant extra Activation, speed up or delay it, but you cannot dispel ability to Activate from a model).

If we're speaking about ability printed on the card, then it is not an effect at all. It can be Hexed off, but it cannot be otherwise removed. Obviously Hexing it off would work exactly as described above.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Mr_Smigs]

see, and we're back to "what is an effect"...

even if it's "immediate" it's not getting resolved "immediately"...

when interacting with other abilities... the question comes into play...

an "on activation" ability becomes questionable...

where does "companion" interact with "on activation" ... IIRC, in a similar thread, it was established that only certain abilities counted as "on activation" until the model was actually used (Like Seamus' WK boost, and Alp's Slow check...)

it all seems very... random... as to what counts and what doesn't when a model is "flagged" with Companion...

this is why understanding if the "going to activate" is an unresolved effect or what would be useful...

[Q'iq'el]

see, and we're back to "what is an effect"...

Not really. Activation doesn't change the state of the model in any way. It is not something added to the card.

even if it's "immediate" it's not getting resolved "immediately"...

I don't know if you'll find even one example of immediate effect that isn't resolved immediately.

When you Simultaneously Activate via ability Companion, you apply the effect immediately. That the models get to resolve effects and move one after another, is an exception caused by technical difficulty of moving them all at the same time. They are activated all at the same time though and that is why you have to declare the group and you can't add other companion targets to it later.

when interacting with other abilities... the question comes into play...

an "on activation" ability becomes questionable...

where does "companion" interact with "on activation" ... IIRC, in a similar thread, it was established that only certain abilities counted as "on activation" until the model was actually used (Like Seamus' WK boost, and Alp's Slow check...)

it all seems very... random... as to what counts and what doesn't when a model is "flagged" with Companion...

this is why understanding if the "going to activate" is an unresolved effect or what would be useful...

No. Wouldn't, because it would cause weird issues and also a problem with ability to remove it, which isn't intended.

I think you are trying to find a problem with it, without getting the grasp of the entire mechanic first.

Everything is relatively consistent - all models activate at once, they all have to be declared as one group, the order of execution of that activation within that group is up to the player, because they effectively activate at the same time.

Because you as a player cannot possibly move them all at once and it would be too confusing if the gameflow suddenly changed, you get to execute these activations model-by-model. Effects on-activation affecting these models also get to be resolved that way.

Everything which depends on positioning and range to other models may get affected, if they change their position before their activation is executed (due to Lure or Transposition for example, or because the model where aura originates moved away), to make it more intuitive. It also lowers the amount of thing to track (you don't have to remember position of all the models in group "on activation").

It's a kind of thing which plays well, causes no argument and keeps everybody content until someone says "just a moment, shouldn't my ultra powerful buff/debuff still affect these models, even though they found themselves out of range when their activation was being executed? IMHO you need to bend normal flow of the game first to even come to the point where you ask that question. Doesn't mean most of the players don't reach that point at certain stage, but the clarification has been posted on the forums for that reason...

Edited October 2, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Ratty]

Not really. Activation doesn't change the state of the model in any way. It is not something added to the card.

The model counts as having been selected for Activation, this is not an effect. The Companion creates an effect which immediately starts the models Activation and then disappears as it's finished.

I don't know if you'll find even one example of immediate effect that isn't resolved immediately.

The only one I can think of is something like a Headshot hitting a model with Slow to Die. The Slow to Die postpones the effect until your free Action is completed.

[Mr_Smigs]

ok,

so "selected for Activation" is not an "effect" ... got it.