Immune to Slow, and Slow Stacking

[Mr_Smigs]

Popped into my head on the way to work...

Guild have those lovely models that "Remove Slow, and Make you immune to Slow...." (Drill Sgt IIRC)

Rules Manual says:

A model immune to or able to ignore X cannot be affected or modified by X when resolving the effect

but doesn't say you can't have X effect on the model. Just that it does not change the model... so secondary effects that are reliant on it (Alps) could, in theory, still affect the model...

1. If you have a "stack" of slows on the model, and they give this power, what happens?

2. If you have "immune to slow" and you activate around an alp, do you still test for slow?

3. If you have "immune to slow" and another model would put slow on you with an Effect, what happens?

[Adran]

My guess is

1 They are removed, it says end slow on target model.

2 No, you are immune to the effect. Therefore you can not recieve it.

3 Nothing happens, the attempt fizzles.

If I am immune to slow I can not be affected or modified by slow when resolving the effect.

[Cunning]

For 2) I'd imagine you still need to do the Wp duel. If you failed then even if you don't gain slow then the cards are still burned and you'd recieve any other effects of losing a Wp duel. Like Emotional Trauma from Pandora.

[Mr_Smigs]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24905&page=2

alas, the comment there says it only removes 1 instance.

again

IMMUNE says noting about not receiving the effect,

just not being afflicted by its resolution.

it's like being able to have poison counters, but not resolving them (new mode, can't remember his name off the top, ressurectionist dude)

and since the rulings there and elsewhere establish that "Fast" and "Slow" do not resolve until the model's activation, but can stack on the model...

it implies that we can stack effects on immune models because, again, the resolution is all IMMUNITY changes... not the application.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Mr_Smigs]

we never did get an answer to this...

can a model that's immune to an effect, still get a "effect will be resolved" flag for the effect?

[hippieshopper]

This is the kind of rules lawyering that makes the BRB and rules marshal necessary.

1. If you have a "stack" of slows on the model, and they give this power, what happens?

Slow doesn't stack. They are already slowed, can't be slowed because they are immune, or go from fast to normal speed.

If they were fast and are hit by slow twice, then they are by definition, slowed.

2. If you have "immune to slow" and you activate around an alp, do you still test for slow?

No, because you cannot be affected by it.

3. If you have "immune to slow" and another model would put slow on you with an Effect, what happens?

Nothing, because you are immune to it.

If you are immune to it, it doesn't linger. It hits you, then it sticks or misses, there is nothing else to it.

I don't mean to be grouchy or seem that way, I'm really not.

It is just a bit of unnecessary over-thinking.

[Mr_Smigs]

This is the kind of rules lawyering that makes the BRB and rules marshal necessary.

[Lucidicide]

So here's how I read it:

"Effect is a game term referring to anything that changes a model's state. Some models are able to ignore or are immune to game effects (X). A model immune to or able to ignore X cannot be affected by or modified by X when resolving the effect. Duels requiring X do not occur."

Now I know this isn't incredibly clear-cut in the RM, but...

If you are immune to slow, you cannot be modified by slow. This says (to me) that you can never have slow applied to you, because if it is applied to you you are modified.

As you already agree, you wouldn't actually end up Slow, but your argument as I understand it is that you would still receive Slow, just not be affected by it. I would argue that you are modified by it if you receive it, and you cannot be modified by it (since you are immune) and therefore you cannot receive it.

That's my read.

[Mr_Smigs]

but all the modification by slow happens in activation... according to other rulings...

[Lucidicide]

All of Slow's consequences happen in activation. The modification itself is added to your card when you receive Slow, that just has no consequence until activation. This is the same reason you could remove Slow from a model outside of its activation. The model has already been modified... just no consequence.

[Hookers]

in my opinion, you still test, you still take a wd, but do not lose the AP since you are unaffected by it.

another example: shikome is summoned and receives slow, which she is immune to. she has two AP to use. she gets next to her prey which gives her fast, canceling the slow that she received from being summoned but was not effected by, and still leaving her with 2 AP.

[hippieshopper]

I really don't mean to ruffle feathers, but you really need someone with a pixel badge to help you make a decision?

An alp targets a shikome, since you have mentioned them...

It casts Steal Breath...succeeds it's cast and for some weird reason the Shikome fails, I'll blame it on the black joker.

Spell goes off, does nothing because of Relentless.

Why do you seem to think it lingers as an effect?

It doesn't, the spell hits the Shikome and does nothing because it's immune to it.

I believe your revered master Ratty has already made rulings on this because people rules lawyer so much that now an object in game is an effect, terrain is an effect, a master is an effect...it gets so ridiculous that someone has to say something.

What test are you talking about?

Feed on dreams isn't a test at all and you aren't affected by slow and don't need to take the damage.

You aren't recieving slow and certainly aren't ever slowed.

She doesn't receive slow, she's immune to it.

She's summoned and is normal right out of the gate.

The Shikome gets next to her prey and is fast, because she wasn't slowed to begin with.

You seem to miss the whole point of being immune to something.

[Hookers]

I was thinking test for Smother (ie. take a Wp -> 12 test with negative flips for each Alp nearby), but Steal Breath works as well...

I've actually already had this conversation with Sketch and Zee. They agreed with how it is currently worded that that is how it would technically work. Should it work that way? I don't know. Will it work that way officially? Perhaps not. But if you think of the practical consequences of having it work that way it stays true to the actual wording of how it is defined and is only a slight, very specific, and subtle cuddle to a model that is probably too good for 7 points, and definitely too good for being able to be summoned in the middle of nowhere and still have a full activation (which it could still do even with my interpretation).

anyways, you sound mad bro. it's just my opinion, based on how english works and how immune is defined. i don't need someone with a pixel badge to help me make decisions and I'm not quit sure where you got that from. I can read. If I had to make the call in a tournament that's the call I would make.

The game has definitions. These definitions can be different from vernacular definitions and quite often are. Again, my interpretation of this definition is that Shikome is still able to receive slow every though it cannot affect her. Like Brett Favre breaking his leg mid-game. It does not affect him. He plays through it as if he had a normal leg, yet his leg is still actually broken.

You seem to miss the whole point of... well english, the fact that an ambiguous phrase might have more than one interpretation (even though how immune is defined is not currently ambiguous and what it literally says is what I am describing, but that is not how people would normally use "immune"), and that most people are capable of recognizing and discussing multiple interpretations without getting angry. :confusedpuppet

[Hatchethead]

You can be immune to a disease and still be a carrier. You have the bug, you just don't show any symptoms. That's all they're saying. I have Slow but I'm NOT Slow. Slap down a Slow marker or three, but ignore the effects.

I'm confident that this was never the intention, but it does appear to be a viable interpretation (for now), as supported by several Marshals.

[Hookers]

I'm also fairly positive that was not intended. At the same time, just because something was intended doesn't mean it was right or good or balanced.

Like I said the practical application of following a literal interpretation of the rules here is slightly reigning in a very powerful model without having to use Errata to do it. And it only really hurts Shikome the turn she is summoned, which is how all other summoning in the game works. Yet at the same time she is still better in that situation than every other summoned model. She just gets 2 AP instead of 3.

The conversation I had was a private one, in a hypothetical sense. I wasn't offering it as proof of how it works, or should work, just that my interpretation was in fact how the sentence reads.

[Hatchethead]

"... as supported by several Marshals" was me spreading misinformation. I recalled seeing this topic discussed and ruled on previously, but after some search-fu I believe I am mistaken. It has been confirmed that numerous instances of Slow (or whatever) stack on a model, but I do not believe immunity versus the stack has been openly discussed.

Sorry, my previous post should have included a quote from hippie, as that is who it was intended for. My bad.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Sandwich]

Popped into my head on the way to work...

Guild have those lovely models that "Remove Slow, and Make you immune to Slow...." (Drill Sgt IIRC)

Rules Manual says:

but doesn't say you can't have X effect on the model. Just that it does not change the model... so secondary effects that are reliant on it (Alps) could, in theory, still affect the model...

1. If you have a "stack" of slows on the model, and they give this power, what happens?

2. If you have "immune to slow" and you activate around an alp, do you still test for slow?

3. If you have "immune to slow" and another model would put slow on you with an Effect, what happens?

This is silly and the reason metagamers in all leagues of gaming do not consult the community.

Its also the greatest given reason why a Congress (Or parliment) exists.

Let me address four seperate points.

1.) As per the book, Slow does not stack. What do you mean "And they give this power"?

- The Alps are different because their ability states "If a model is affected by Slow, even it is already under the effect of slow"

2. You test for slow, you cannot receive slow and will therefore suffer no Wd.

You are not Immune to Influence, you are Immune to Slow.

3. The model casts the spell, you resist the spell, either way, you are immune to slow, you do not receive slow.

This whole nitpicking words deal about effects and whatnot is just stupid and I can't believe I'm actually forcing myself to be a part of it.

This subject only comes up after Alps get cuddled and the unskilled players who rely on Alp Bombs can no longer instagimp every model in game must then come in and try to pick apart the one resurrectionist model that can counter an Alp Bomb.

Its pathetic and you should feel bad about yourselves.

- - -

And this "You can be immune to a disease but still carry"

Really?

This game follows the laws and intentions set out by humanity, not natural course.

Don't try to do that.

It shows faulty skill in a debate and will get you laughed at in any professional conversation.

- - - -

In summation, Immune means Immune.

Meaning unaffected.

Meaning no Slow on Shikome.

Look at the countless different rulings on Immune to Influence and apply the same exact logic to the same exact situation.

A Rules marshall shouldn't even have to come in here and say anything about this.

Its just straight up attempting to Loophole a model that gave someone trouble.

Peace.

[Hatchethead]

I'm not arguing for or against. Heck, I'm not even arguing. I'm curious what a Marshal has to say, despite the situation being so obviously gamey. Smigs has raised several points as of late that seemed silly at first but were later proven valid by official sources. I'm not taking anything for granted.

As for my "immune to a virus, immune to Slow" example, that's all it was: an example. It was a short, relatable parallel to detail a point of view, to explain how certain people have chosen to interpret instances of Slow verus immunity to Slow. I'm not actually insinuating that immunity works this way in game because it works that way in nature. Don't be ridiculous. I even go so far as to say I don't believe that's the intention, but it's not so outlandish as to be dismissed out of hand.

For me, this has nothing to do with gimping Shikome. I'd prefer not, I love my Shikome.

... and the term "professional conversation" makes me laugh. Half the problems on this board are caused by people who fancy themselves "professional conversationalists".

If you insist on making accusations, avoid painting with too broad a brush. It's a fast track to animosity.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Mr_Smigs]

Hatchethead and Hookers have it right for why this is being asked...

for example, it's been clearly defined in the ideas of "stacking" effects that are "waiting to be resolved" that, even if the effect does not stack as game terms define, they do pile up for if another effect removes them.

example: If a model has been hit with 3 spells causing Slow it will only lose 1 AP, but will have to be given Fast three times (or have Slow removed three times) to not lose 1 AP on its activation.

so the question that got that answer was extended to this,

what if the model is immune a game term that does not address "waiting to be resolved" effects piled up on the model.

for more specific example, the Drill Instructor removes Slow and makes the model immune to slow. but, as the ruling on multiple slow effects has explained that this would only remove one "waiting to be resolved" slow what happens to a model who was hit by slow effects multiple times? or gets hit by another slow effect.

there are secondary abilities that activate off of a model receiving slow that make us care about this interaction.

[Hatchethead]

I will go on record as saying I believe the intention of Immunity is to remove all instances of "waiting to be resolved" and all future applications. In other words, if a model has five instances of Slow applied and then receives Immune to Slow, all instances are removed and any future attempts to apply Slow immediately fail.

Shikome is summoned, is Immune to Slow and therefore cannot receive an instance of Slow, meaning her Fast is unaffected. This feels intuitive and correct.

... but I can appreciate the argument to the contrary.

Is it my imagination or was there not a thread a while back that ruled a model Immune to Poison still receives the Poison tokens but otherwise ignores the damage upon activation?

Edited October 9, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Sandwich]

Hatchethead and Hookers have it right for why this is being asked...

for example, it's been clearly defined in the ideas of "stacking" effects that are "waiting to be resolved" that, even if the effect does not stack as game terms define, they do pile up for if another effect removes them.

example: If a model has been hit with 3 spells causing Slow it will only lose 1 AP, but will have to be given Fast three times (or have Slow removed three times) to not lose 1 AP on its activation.

so the question that got that answer was extended to this,

what if the model is immune a game term that does not address "waiting to be resolved" effects piled up on the model.

for more specific example, the Drill Instructor removes Slow and makes the model immune to slow. but, as the ruling on multiple slow effects has explained that this would only remove one "waiting to be resolved" slow what happens to a model who was hit by slow effects multiple times? or gets hit by another slow effect.

there are secondary abilities that activate off of a model receiving slow that make us care about this interaction.

You are clearly not clear with how the process of slow works.

Models need not receive fast for every consecutive slow they receive to maintain 1 AP.

Slow does not "Pile up" or "Stack" at all.

There is no faux Queue for any effect.

You made that up and then said it was clearly defined.

If a model is slowed seven thousand, nine hundred and fifty five times in a single turn it only needs to receive fast once to negative the effects of slow.

(Albeit if you were Alp bombing as I suspect, that model would be dead because they have a specific effect stating that they cause Wd to models slowed, even if already slow.)

What is clearly defined is the word "Immune."

But you seem to be ignoring that and attempting to add some shroud of mystique to it so you can bypass the defenses of one model with another, namely a Shikome and an Alp.

Your Alp bomb does NOT affect Shikome.

Just whip out chompy Bits and chain Onslaught her.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Sandwich

[Sandwich]

I'm not arguing for or against. Heck, I'm not even arguing. I'm curious what a Marshal has to say, despite the situation being so obviously gamey. Smigs has raised several points as of late that seemed silly at first but were later proven valid by official sources. I'm not taking anything for granted.

As for my "immune to a virus, immune to Slow" example, that's all it was: an example. It was a short, relatable parallel to detail a point of view, to explain how certain people have chosen to interpret instances of Slow verus immunity to Slow. I'm not actually insinuating that immunity works this way in game because it works that way in nature. Don't be ridiculous. I even go so far as to say I don't believe that's the intention, but it's not so outlandish as to be dismissed out of hand.

For me, this has nothing to do with gimping Shikome. I'd prefer not, I love my Shikome.

... and the term "professional conversation" makes me laugh. Half the problems on this board are caused by people who fancy themselves "professional conversationalists".

If you insist on making accusations, avoid painting with too broad a brush. It's a fast track to animosity.

Agreed.

And apologies.

I'm not sure what other frivolous claims Smigs has made but I doubt they're as bad as this.

I like you Hatchet, you're a nice guy and you are always valid in your statements.

I'm not attacking you.

It just irritates me when things like this come up for whatever reason and I don't agreed in feeding the convoluted side of things with outlandish additional statements.

[Ciaran]

You are clearly not clear with how the process of slow works.

Models need not receive fast for every consecutive slow they receive to maintain 1 AP.

Slow does not "Pile up" or "Stack" at all.

There is no faux Queue for any effect.

You made that up and then said it was clearly defined.

If a model is slowed seven thousand, nine hundred and fifty five times in a single turn it only needs to receive fast once to negative the effects of slow.

You might want to look again. This was taken apart in a thread with a Rules Marshall, and it indeed works the way he described.

The only time Fast would counteract all seven thousand plus Slows is if the model activated, the Slows gave the model -1 AP, and somehow during its activation it was made Fast, regaining its AP.

There is indeed a faux Queue for activation point modifiers, although that name makes me cringe.

On my tablet, and not sure how to link you to the other discussion, should be easy to find.

[Sandwich]

You might want to look again. This was taken apart in a thread with a Rules Marshall, and it indeed works the way he described.

The only time Fast would counteract all seven thousand plus Slows is if the model activated, the Slows gave the model -1 AP, and somehow during its activation it was made Fast, regaining its AP.

There is indeed a faux Queue for activation point modifiers, although that name makes me cringe.

On my tablet, and not sure how to link you to the other discussion, should be easy to find.

That is the one of the more stupid rulings I've seen.

But then again I don't branch out to other mini games so

I don't know how common bad rules are.

All that aside, Shikome are still immune, and my point is more or less still the same.

[Hatchethead]

I like you Hatchet, you're a nice guy and you are always valid in your statements.

I wouldn't say always. I can be just as baseless as the next guy, but thank you.

I do appreciate your frustration. More often than not, I find Malifaux to be an intuitive game. Sure, there are some rules that run counter to common sense but they tend to be issues of "balance over realism". It's only when people start tearing at the tiny cracks - opening giant, semantic-shaped holes - do things become complicated and messy. The intention of a rule is usually fairly obvious, but that's often not enough to appease. The Rules Marshals are paragons of patience, really.

I always try to see and appreciate both sides of a rules dispute; the one born of interpretation, the other of intent, the never-ending struggle of RAW versus RAI. Though I tend to fall on the side of intention, I rarely see reason to argue. Once a can of worms has been opened, it takes a badge or a top hat to seal it up again. Everything else is just noise.

When the poo starts flying (as it often does), ambivalence is my sword and shield.

... but back to the topic at hand:

I almost wonder if action mods (page 34) should officially be granted tokens with rules associated (as per page 19 of the RM). It seems this is how they are meant to be played, with multiple instances of Slow piling up or being removed by multiple applications of Fast. Same for Reactivate/Paralyze. Though it's somewhat rare to see multiple applications of anything, it's coming to a point where visual aids would be beneficial if only to track instances outside of activation.

New turn, add a Fast token to Perdita, removed when she chooses to spend her extra general AP. Flesh Construct, player opts to keep his control card, Franky is Dumb and gains a Slow token, removal of one or more indicates the Passing of a general AP. Shikome is summoned, add a Slow token? Nope. She's Immune. Near her Prey? Add a Fast token. You have a model suffering with three instances of Slow, gains a Fast? Still has two Slow tokens.

One less thing to keep track of in a game where keeping track of stuff is a full time job.

It would also go a long way toward differentiating "action modifiers" from "specific AP" (page 33) like Instinctual, Melee Expert, etc.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Ciaran]

I almost wonder if action mods (page 34) should officially be granted tokens with rules associated (as per page 19 of the RM). It seems this is how they are meant to be played, with multiple applications of Slow piling up or being removed by multiple applications of Fast. Same for Reactivate/Paralyze. Though it's somewhat rare to see multiple applications of anything, it's coming to a point where visual aids would be beneficial.

New turn, add a Fast token to Perdita, removed when she chooses to spend her extra general AP. Flesh Construct, player opts to keep his control card, Franky is Dumb and gains a Slow token, removed instead of spending a general AP. Shikome enters play, add a Slow token? Nope. She's Immune. Near her Prey? Add a Fast token. You have a model suffering with three instances of Slow, gains a Fast? Still has two Slow tokens.

One less thing to keep track of in a game where keeping track of stuff is a full time job.

It would also go a long way toward differentiating these "action modifiers" from "specific AP" (page 33) like Instinctual, Melee Master, etc.

That's actually how I mentally keep it straight. Slips of paper would work quite well I think.

Sandwich, I thought it was weird at first. The more I play under the explanation the more it makes sense. It actually keeps the rules much more internally consistent, which is pretty damned awesome.

Sure, the Shikome isn't affected by Slow or Paralyzed. It doesn't say that it's Immune to the resist duels that cause them. If an Ability adds both Slow and some other condition, it would still have to be resisted, or the Shikome would suffer the other penalty. An opponent can any number of "slow tokens" on the Shikome with no effect on her activation from those "tokens." She would still be affected by Exhaustion, and suffer the Wound if any Alps are close enough.

It completely makes sense within the rules.