Burning Aura

[psychocamel]

Scenario:

Lilith has but one wound left, she attacks Iggy. Iggy's burning aura triggers and deals one damage to Lilith.

Does Lilith still do damage? Remember that burning aura triggers on hit not on damage, so technically she dies before the damage flip (I suppose). At the same time though from a realistic (hurr) point of view, it would be weird if she hits him with a sword and dies without the sword actually doing anything...

Now to mix things up a bit (though this scenario could be rendered moot depending on the answer to the previous question):

Lord Chompy Bits has one wound left, and attacks Iggy. Does LCB's delight on pain (heal 1 wd) trigger in time to save his life? What if he flips the trigger for "All Done"? Does he die, heal, or swap to the Dreamer before any of that happens?

[poulpox]

Hello!

Hmmm.. I'm tempted to say:

For Iggy's aura to be triggered the hit has to be successful, but if the hit is successful, it means it will deal Dg, SO, that's how I would do it:

. Lilith strikes successfully

. Iggy's aura is triggered and interupts the sequence

. Lilith receives 1 Wd and dies

. Strike sequence resumes: flip for Dg -> inflcit Dg and Wd on Iggy

This potentially could see both models dying

Regarding LCB however since his Delight in Pain happens after inflicting Wds, if we use the sequence above he will die before the Dg flip is made so when the healing would occur it would not take place as LCB would already be dead. Same with All done, except this time it is simultaneous: both LCB and Iggy take the Dg/Wd at the same time (ie "after hitting).

Note that in both instances with LCB, the latter would die BUT Iggy would take the Dg from the strike too.

Hope this is right!

Edited September 6, 2011 by poulpox

[psychocamel]

Hi.

Thanks for the reply, that's pretty much how we've been playing it. But the Iggy player points out (rightly enough) that Fire Gamin have burning blood, which reads the same except that it's an on damage trigger rather than on hit. So the question is are the abilities actually different or just arbitrarily.

But still, so far as I said we've been playing it the way you have ruled.

[Calmdown]

Hi.

Thanks for the reply, that's pretty much how we've been playing it. But the Iggy player points out (rightly enough) that Fire Gamin have burning blood, which reads the same except that it's an on damage trigger rather than on hit. So the question is are the abilities actually different or just arbitrarily.

But still, so far as I said we've been playing it the way you have ruled.

They're different abilities; burning aura and burning blood. No reason to think they should be the same.

I agree with Poulpox's sequence. If it was a Fire Gamin and Burning Blood, then it would be different; Lilith would die after she deals damage, rather than before.

[psychocamel]

They're different abilities; burning aura and burning blood. No reason to think they should be the same.

Yeah that's the point I just made =p

I agree with Poulpox's sequence. If it was a Fire Gamin and Burning Blood, then it would be different; Lilith would die after she deals damage, rather than before.

Wait what? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Going by Poulpox's sequence (one I agree with) both models would die. This is the exact same thing that would happen in the alternate scenario that you are saying would work differently..

Unless you're just trying to say that both times both models would die and it's just that one would die first one way, and second the other way.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, first of all Burning Aura is not a trigger. It is an ability that goes off when the model gets hit.

Triggers have precisely set timing and they occur within the duel's sequence, without interrupting the duel, or after the duel is finished (if they give a new action to one of the models).

Abilities generally interrupt the flow of the game and are resolved fully before the players return to their previous activity - in this case the duel. Should the attacker die as the result of the Burning Aura damage, it would be completely removed (resolving all other possible abilities set off by such an event), before the duel is resumed.

Having said that, I'm not sure if death of the attacker prevents the damage from occurring. After all, the ability goes off after the hit has already landed - damage flip is an effect of the Strike rather than something the attacker does.

[Cunning]

The difference would be that in the Chompy vs fire gamin example Chompy would still live as he'd get his wounds back from Delight in Pain. I think.

Also flip a black joker on damage and no wounds for either party.

EDIT: Plus any abilities/triggers that the attacker has that will not cause wounds for whatever reason will also mean the attacker wont suffer wounds from burning blood.

Edited September 6, 2011 by CunningStunt

[Sholto]

I would say that although the creator of the Strike effect (Lilith) is dead, the effect is still underway and must be fully resolved. Meaning that although Lilith would die before damage is done to Iggy, Iggy would still take damage. Lilith could not get any triggers off it, as she is no longer in play. Her controller could still cheat the flip etc.

[goblyn13]

Burning Aura: Bulletproof 1. When this model is hit by a melee Strike or melee Spell, the attacker suffers 1 Wd and gains a Burning Token.

Burning Aura, specifically happens when a model is hist by a strike but before damage. However the attacker would still make a damage flip, The difference between Burning Aura and Burning Blood is that for Burning Blood to take effect, the defender actually has to be Damaged, so if the attacker flipped a black joker for damage they wouldn't suffer. However on Burning Aura, even if the attacker flipped a Black Joker on the Damage Flip, they would still suffer the effects.

Even though the attacker died on the Strike, they would still get the damage flip because the damage flip is an effect of the Strike.

Its also worded that way because Iggy has Martyr, if it only worked on damage, no one would suffer if he martyred the damage onto another Woe. Whereas with it being worded on being hit, he can slough off the damage onto another woe, while at the same time making his attacker suffer.

Edited September 6, 2011 by goblyn13

[Zalantos]

Does Lilith count as killing the iggy if she dies first? I am thinking of objectives here.

[Q'iq'el]

Does Lilith count as killing the iggy if she dies first? I am thinking of objectives here.

I'd say so. It isn't the case of something dying due to its own ability (like Stitched) or poison effect etc. Iggy still dies from Lilith's strike.

[psychocamel]

This thread has been very helpful, thank you all

[psychocamel]

The difference would be that in the Chompy vs fire gamin example Chompy would still live as he'd get his wounds back from Delight in Pain. I think.

That bit isn't actually true since Delight in Pain requires a living target and Gamin is a construct, but still the point is taken, these points especially makes sense:

Also flip a black joker on damage and no wounds for either party.

EDIT: Plus any abilities/triggers that the attacker has that will not cause wounds for whatever reason will also mean the attacker wont suffer wounds from burning blood.