mpangelu Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Is it me or does he get screwed on one of his manifest requirements.... If an enemy non master has construct... he has to use overide edict on it. However, one quick thing to point out. Almost every Construct in the game comes with immune to influence. Please point out examples (I believe Collodi's dolls might be one) that doesn't. So.. if say a dreamer crew has a teddy who is immune to influence.. he can not achieve one of his manifest requirements.. Overide Edict is a wp resist after all.. Please point out the thing I'm missing if I'm wrong in this please... otherwise.. wtf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Shaper Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 What is the wording of the manifest requirement? I haven't had my Twisting Fates arrive yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Shaper Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Ok so Immune to Influence is immune to Override Edict but not all constructs have immune to influence. From the first 2 book you have these that can be effected: necropunks brass arachnid ice gamin ice golem joss steampunk arachnid steampunk arachnid swarm steamborg executioner voodoo doll desolation engine steampunk abomination mechanical attendent ryle necrotic machine mech doves coryphee/duet large steampunk arachnid mannequin soulstone miner collodi marionette wicked doll ashes and dust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 It still seems like an easy requirement to foil. Take a construct with Immune to Influence and park it away from Hoffman. With his other requirement, you're looking at a 3rd turn manifestation at minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 It still seems like an easy requirement to foil. Take a construct with Immune to Influence and park it away from Hoffman. With his other requirement, you're looking at a 3rd turn manifestation at minimum. true, but at least you don't know your facing Hoffman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 true, but at least you don't know your facing Hoffman. Sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted September 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) The point is, is that by no effort or fault on either side, a player can effectively eliminate the manifestation requirement. By just bringing the immune to influence one you do so. As the manifestation requirement says "if the enemy has no blah blah in the game.... not the turn .. not in play.. in the game... You don't have to park anything anywhere.. just the act of bringing it foils it. Pending he doesn't actually bring any that are, or manages to keep the other ones that aren't out. Edited September 6, 2011 by mpangelu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted September 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Ok so Immune to Influence is immune to Override Edict but not all constructs have immune to influence. From the first 2 book you have these that can be effected: necropunks brass arachnid ice gamin ice golem joss steampunk arachnid steampunk arachnid swarm steamborg executioner voodoo doll desolation engine steampunk abomination mechanical attendent ryle necrotic machine mech doves coryphee/duet large steampunk arachnid mannequin soulstone miner collodi marionette wicked doll ashes and dust Thanks, my girlfriend has borrowed my first two books and I wasn't able to check those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Shaper Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 But you don't have to get both to manifest... that was only one of the requirements... what is the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 But you don't have to get both to manifest... that was only one of the requirements... what is the other? Killing two enemy models with Strikes from Machine Puppet. So against C. Hoffman, you can create some pretty easy denial strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Yeah but trying to neuter his ability to manifest is probably costing some board control, which can help earn the VP needed to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted September 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 How is that? Again, if you have .. lets say Dreamer crew.. and only constructs are teddies.. then gg... Hoffman can probably achieve the killing 2 enemies with machine puppet probably reguardless of how you do stuff due to movement with a peacekeeper reactivate and all that. But it's kinda of retarded that by bringing only a construct with immune to influence he is screwed on one manifest requirement. Are there any other avatars with such a limited manifestation scope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted September 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) It would be fine if they just removed the If there are no enemy non-master constructs are in the game after the OR part and it would be fine. Would mean once on an enemy or twice on your own people. And it could be done in one turn albeit, so I do think it should have some limitating factors.. maybe have it 3 times on your own people, but it just seems like thats a big middle finger to the hoff. Even if you did decide to do the overide edict twice on your own guys it still limits your ability to do the machine puppet. Edited September 6, 2011 by mpangelu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Eh seriously..? I certainly wouldn't say that Hoffman have the worst/most difficult manifest requirements.. Yes, some games it might be harder to pull this one requirement off, however when the enemy does not bring any constructs then it's suddenly one of the easiest requirements there is and one you most likely complete during the course of the game regardless of whether you have payed the 2SS or not.. If the enemy brings a construct without I2I then it's also an easy requirement that just requires a single cast.. If you really think that everyone will suddenly start always taking at least one construct and only constructs with I2I when facing the Guild because they might face Hoffman and he might have opted to bring his Avatar along then yes things does seem a bit unfair, however I consider the likelyhood of this actually happening rather low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Eh seriously..? I certainly wouldn't say that Hoffman have the worst/most difficult manifest requirements. He doesn't really have to have the worst, but his are difficult. Like all of the requirements that involve hunting down enemy models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 How is that? Again, if you have .. lets say Dreamer crew.. and only constructs are teddies.. then gg... Hoffman can probably achieve the killing 2 enemies with machine puppet probably reguardless of how you do stuff due to movement with a peacekeeper reactivate and all that. But it's kinda of retarded that by bringing only a construct with immune to influence he is screwed on one manifest requirement. Are there any other avatars with such a limited manifestation scope? There are requirements that force the masters into making quite an effort to fulfill them. Lilith's requirement to inflict 10 Wd on models in b2b contact with forests is similarly taxing on a no-forests table (doesn't exactly depend on the opponent, but also is something Lilith player can do nothing about) or when the opponent simply doesn't go near forests. Sure, she can drop Illusionary Forest on these targets, but that's 1 attack less every turn and you can't use the forest in the normal way (i.e. to shield your crew)... and the opponent can relatively easily walk away from a 3" forest. The point is, I think, that you don't have to fulfill both requirements most of the time. If you want to speed the manifestation up a bit and still not waste the AP on it, then yes, you need to go out of your way to achieve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 @Jonas: I would put them somewhere around the middle of the road really.. You aren't all that unlikely to get either of Hoffmans requirements off during a normal game with him and as such don't have to go out of your way to make his manifestation happen. Perdita on the other hand has to spend :masks's to fulfill her requirements. Masks that you normally much rather have spent on Obeys or Trigger Happy's. I think that is much, much worse.. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 @Jonas: I would put them somewhere around the middle of the road really.. You aren't all that unlikely to get either of Hoffmans requirements off during a normal game with him and as such don't have to go out of your way to make his manifestation happen. Perdita on the other hand has to spend :masks's to fulfill her requirements. Masks that you normally much rather have spent on Obeys or Trigger Happy's. I think that is much, much worse.. :/ Hoffman's are inline with his playstyle, my larger point is that Self Contained Requirements cannot be denied or manipulated, whereas ones the need enemy models allows your opponent to manipulate the Master, and thus grants the player more board control. I'll be really interested to read upcoming battle reports that utilize a strategy where the player was baited into fulfilling requirements at the detriment to their overall victory. And I think Perdita's difficulty is negated by the fact that no one in their right mind would want her Avatar over her original form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hoffman's are inline with his playstyle, my larger point is that Self Contained Requirements cannot be denied or manipulated, whereas ones the need enemy models allows your opponent to manipulate the Master, and thus grants the player more board control. I'll be really interested to read upcoming battle reports that utilize a strategy where the player was baited into fulfilling requirements at the detriment to their overall victory. And I think Perdita's difficulty is negated by the fact that no one in their right mind would want her Avatar over her original form. I'm inclined to agree on both accounts.. Although even some of the 'self-contained' requirements require you to go out of your way to complete.. Zoraidas 2 * Crystal Ball for instance mostly just means no Raven and a high mask drain if you try to get it early on. To a lesser extent Seamus' Face of Death and Lilith's Illusionary Forest - you wouldn't normally spend AP on those early on, at least not with the Master. There's also some fairly easy 'enemy interaction' requirements, like Sonnias 10 Wd on enemy models. But yes, as a general rule.. The easiest requirements are all in the 'self-contained' department and the most difficult ones in the 'enemy interaction'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Although even some of the 'self-contained' requirements require you to go out of your way to complete.. Zoraidas 2 * Crystal Ball for instance mostly just means no Raven and a high mask drain if you try to get it early on. To a lesser extent Seamus' Face of Death and Lilith's Illusionary Forest - you wouldn't normally spend AP on those early on, at least not with the Master. You're exactly right here. Early AP is crucial to setting up your VP strategy, and even models with Fast don't have any to waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 I did point this out in the avatar Hoffman thread a few weeks ago, but I don't think it is as bad as I first feared - for one thing, there are more constructs without Immune to influence than I first feared (although mostly in the Arcanist faction...). Another point worth making is that unlike many masters, Hoffman's avatar strikes me as something of a late game piece anyway - since you lose much of your construct buffing, I could see easily waiting until the 3rd or 4th turn to bring him in as a late game finisher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Another point worth making is that unlike many masters, Hoffman's avatar strikes me as something of a late game piece anyway - since you lose much of your construct buffing, I could see easily waiting until the 3rd or 4th turn to bring him in as a late game finisher... If you've flipped Slaugther or Contain Power, maybe. At 2 AP and no Bonus (other than choosing Ranged Expert), you're not going to be affecting the strategy all that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 If you've flipped Slaugther or Contain Power, maybe. At 2 AP and no Bonus (other than choosing Ranged Expert), you're not going to be affecting the strategy all that much. I won't be paying the soul stones if its going to get in the way of my strategy, but even in some other strategies, if I've built the list to deal with the objectives (Watchers operating independently) the avatar seems like a heavy weight distraction at any rate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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