Avatar Kirai, looking for some discussion

[DeleteAccount]

Hey kids, I've gotten my sexysmexy spirit of vengeance and want to get more mileage out of it. I had a half test with her (only 3 turn game) where I managed to get both requirements going, but pretty much manifested for the lols since the smarter move would have been to remain Kirai for most of my activation or another turn.

Thing is, when I was ready to manifest, I only had the Datsue Ba around, which meant a lot of my vengeance shenanigans weren't going to be working much of anything that day. Basically, as I see it, the avatar form wants to have numbers but also solid spirits to work.

I tried this trend a bit starting with Onryo's, only 3 seishin and Datsue Ba (mostly for healing in the later game). I played against the victorias and well, my spirits life line went as well as you would expect. But getting back on topic, I did feel that this was a good start to an avatar Kirai list (maybe more Gaki than onryo or a mix of both) while still being adaptable enough in the first few turns to jam Ikirio and a shikome once in a while where needed.

So basically, what are your impressions and ideas about this? Just to make things clear, yes, I do admit raw power wise, vanilla Kirai brings a more reliable set of tools, but I like having the option to hulk out a bit and though not as mobile as with plain Kirai, her force is still plenty mobile while going up a notch in the damage department. Basically, here I want discussion about getting mileage out of the avatar, no about how I shouldn't bother, I have the model and I clearly intend to use it.

Anyway, impressions? playing experiences?

[Calmdown]

I just look at her abilities, and think... I'd probably only manifest this on occasion, it's very niche. But then I think to myself... maybe I'll try her in a couple of games, despite the fact that her melee attack is medicore, and that all of her vengeance abilities are hosed against anyone who does damage via methods other than melee attacks.

Then I look at her Df 4 Wd 9, and remind myself that I'm being an idiot and should never run her, ever, except for fun.

Then I look at the model sat on my desk, and let out a Despairing Sigh.

***

On a constructive note (and bearing in mind I havent used her), I dont think that running or not running the Avatar should alter your list from a normal Kirai list. You should factor in that Ikiryo killing things can be pretty infrequent and not try to do that, and just play for a manifest via one condition; this is optimal in any case as by the time you're likely to want this avatar, it's going to be later anyway. If Ikiryo does kill stuff, so much the better.

You'll probably be wanting to actually do normal Kirai stuff on your turn with some/all of your AP before she manifests; swirling spirits into combat, attacking with Ikiryo and using Call Spirits, and so on. The idea as far as I can see it is to position all your stuff, and then go Avatar for the reactive abilities, so that anyone fighting back has to take hits/Wds (lol at that ability doing 1 Wd to people who take mod or severe....seriously? 1? Anyway...) from aKirai as well as fighting their own battle. She's super squishy, so in following turns you'll be wanting to try to keep activation advantage whilst using the above reactive abilities, moving her in to assassinate something later on in each turn whilst remaining a bit safer.

That's how I see it anyway. It's definitely not great, but it's an option. And its very easy to fit the 2 points into a Kirai list, so it could be interesting. I'll be giving her a runout soon and I'll report back with more. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

PS. And her model is really lame and boring. Worst Avatar of all of the ones I've seen. No idea why she's so expensive.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Calmdown

[Fetid Strumpet]

If you are planning on running an Avatar in Kirai's list, you should design your list to take advantage of it from the outset. And by that I mean you should swarm. Bring as many significant Spirit models as you can, and maybe a bruiser or support model. A list I'd consider would look like:

Kirai

AVATAR Kirai

Lost Love

Seishin x 4

Gaki (or Night Terrors) X 6

Insidious Madness

The swarming Gaki are very swift, being Mv 5 and having an addtional move you may take towards a living model in the end phase. They also support each other via feeding frenzy and being able to sacrifice up to ht 2 models should they choose to.

During the game while Kirai is normal you will have very good movement potential because of the sheer number of Spirits you'll be able to jump to. Also your Gaki are about as expendable as your Seishin, so sacrificing and absorbing will be given more flexibility.

Once you do decide to Manifest this list offers some unique opportunities. With your direct Spirits you will be able to move the Gaki into better positions to support each other for a chained Gorge attack. The number of models you have will hopefully let you tie most of the opposing crew up within range of Kirai's mark of vengeance and possibly her spiteful aura. And so they are caught with the decision to either not engage the swarm, or attempt to kill them and risk Kirai coming in to pound them. Don't forget to abuse the Seishin's ability to Spiritually empower Kirai, in a standard Kirai playing format it can sometimes be difficult to place this buff on the spirit you want, but as Kirai will almost always have a Seishin near her it is almost worth considering Kirai's Cb as 9.

[Dirty Moses]

she maybe a def 4 and 9 wd but she can still pass off damage to her seishin, her seishin can give her cb 9 and she will most likely start off the turn with fast. if she so happens to take damage you can still sack a seishin to give her a healing flip. Kirai has never been the best solo master. she has always been a support peace for her crew and her avatar doesn't change that at all.... O and in her avatar form her seishin beacon range increases to 10" O_o. she moves for a (0) and can make up to 4 melee strikes in just her activation alone. think about the whole crew with her avatar it nothen to shake a stick at.

[Dirty Moses]

Her check this out the most OP 35 ss Kirai their is =)

Kirai

1 lost love

5 seishin

1 Datsue-Ba

3 Gaki

1 desperate mercenary

U can add the avatar if you want i do just cuz I want to get her on the field but then game mostly never makes it past turn 3. the one way i see to try to make this better is to -1 Gaki and +1 k9 remains. lol give me question if you need to know how but my turn one looks like. summon shikome, and ikiryo

both in melee turn one with the my opponent( and he had no activation's left) and summon one gaki with a corps counter on him and i still have 4 seihin and kirai has full health.

[Dirty Moses]

Any kirai game with out the datsue- ba is madness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Calmdown]

Any kirai game with out the datsue- ba is madness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OP Datsue-Ba, now I've seen it all!

[emissary]

Then I look at her Df 4 Wd 9, and remind myself that I'm being an idiot and should never run her, ever, except for fun.

Always with the over-reactions. She's also a spirit which halves her damage against a lot of sources. (which also makes it easier to use a soulstone to prevent the wounds after the halving). And the others mentioned her passing damage off onto seishin.

I've had the most success with her with some gaki running around. Gaki in general are great and I've found them moreso with her.

PS. And her model is really lame and boring. Worst Avatar of all of the ones I've seen. No idea why she's so expensive.

I agree it isn't one of the better ones. I would give the worst Avatar award to aMarcus though. Model is puny and looks horrid.

[Draznar]

Her check this out the most OP 35 ss Kirai their is =)

Kirai

1 lost love

5 seishin

1 Datsue-Ba

3 Gaki

1 desperate mercenary

U can add the avatar if you want i do just cuz I want to get her on the field but then game mostly never makes it past turn 3. the one way i see to try to make this better is to -1 Gaki and +1 k9 remains. lol give me question if you need to know how but my turn one looks like. summon shikome, and ikiryo

both in melee turn one with the my opponent( and he had no activation's left) and summon one gaki with a corps counter on him and i still have 4 seihin and kirai has full health.

How? Please Enlighten a newer Kirai player. Not sure I see why this is "OverPowered Kirai" list >_>

[Calmdown]

How? Please Enlighten a newer Kirai player. Not sure I see why this is "OverPowered Kirai" list >_>

It's not overpowered at all. It's actually on the average-poor side of Kirai lists. People think that Datsue-Ba'ing your own models is some uber pro move, much like they do with Nicodem killing a horde of his own dogs, all of which are losing strategies against competent players.

[DeleteAccount]

Thanks for the feedback. Significant spirit spam seems the way to go if you want to avatar. Calmdown, the problem with just going with a standard shikome list mostly steems from the lack of numbers, aKirai is dangerous when you have a lot of stuff frolicking around taking moderate and severe and pilling on damage while at the same time Kirai moves in to slap anybody that has killed her friends. I've played lists more to your style and in my experience I'm at most packing the seishin and totem, a shikome or 2, the ikirio and maybe an errant spirit I summoned for the lols, with only 2 real targets for her shenanigans it does become pointless to manifest.

I would also not underestimate her resilience thanks to spirit, sources of healing from seishin/damage transfers (or datsue ba/librarian for the heals) nor her offence thanks to being able to move 12" without using any 1 actions and getting a strike from it with very easy access to fast as long as seishin are around (except the turn you manifest), cb9 from a bolster and extra strikes from her counter trigger (which is bloody awesome if something without magic weapons is hitting you) and her vengeance slaps after somebody kills a spirit.

[Dirty Moses]

the datsue ba is not what make this list op she is just in their for flavor you have to look harder/ mabye play the list to under stand.

[Calmdown]

the datsue ba is not what make this list op she is just in their for flavor you have to look harder/ mabye play the list to under stand.

OK dude keep your magical mystical secrets under wraps, in fact you might as well stop posting altogether and teasing us poor amateurs with your uberness!

[Dirty Moses]

the datsue-ba is not what makes the list. she is in their for flavor the real power in this list in Kirai and the Gaki. only single minded players would see this list and think that the datsue-ba killing the one Desperate mercenary is the main goal of it....... and by flavor the datsue ba kill the desperate merc with a weak damage of weigh sins (1) it give a seishin, a corps counter, and a gaki. it also give kirai a healling flip......hum 2 models + healing flip = free shikome, and gaki. turn one and whole crew still move at least 15" in the turn. so lets think a little before we call list weak. when I have a 3 point gaki model that is a 4 wd spirit with a corpse counter over my Strategy turn one.( as long a a gaki has or is with in 6" of a corpse counter it cant be killed.

[Calmdown]

the datsue-ba is not what makes the list. she is in their for flavor the real power in this list in Kirai and the Gaki. only single minded players would see this list and think that the datsue-ba killing the one Desperate mercenary is the main goal of it....... and by flavor the datsue ba kill the desperate merc with a weak damage of weigh sins (1) it give a seishin, a corps counter, and a gaki. it also give kirai a healling flip......hum 2 models + healing flip = free shikome, and gaki. turn one and whole crew still move at least 15" in the turn. so lets think a little before we call list weak. with I have a 3 point gaki model that is a 4 wd spirit with a corpse counter.( as long a a gaki has or is with in 6" of a corpse counter it cant be killed.

You're right, by golly, no-one's ever tried this before! This is really powerful

[DeleteAccount]

Lets please keep this focused on aKirai and discuss the virtues of Gakispam in a new thread.

[Dirty Moses]

why make a thread or open any thing for descussion when you can just ask that Cock-Bag (Calmdown). he knows it all.

[demkoenig]

If aKirai works well with a buttload of spirits going out and taking damage/dying, wouldn't Gakispam work well with aKirai?

[Calmdown]

If aKirai works well with a buttload of spirits going out and taking damage/dying, wouldn't Gakispam work well with aKirai?

The problem is, Gakispam is not really a viable list type so you're gimping your list to make Kirai better if/when you get her out.

I dont think designing your list around her is a good idea, especially since most good Kirai lists already include quite a lot of models.

Also, I feel the need to point out Night Terrors again, who are better than Gaki in just about every way!

For example, a normal Kirai list:

Kirai

Lost Love

5 Seishin

2 Shikome

Insidious Madness

Night Terror

could easily become

Kirai

aKirai

Lost Love

5 Seishin

Shikome

Insidious Madness

3 Night Terror

That's still a lot of models on the board, and no need to go headlong into spirit-spam to make it work. If you prefer you could of course take Gaki in place of NTs, switch Madness for another NT and get a stone, or so on.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Calmdown

[demkoenig]

I haven't seen Insidious Madness with Kirai before. What is the role of the madness in that crew?

[Ratty]

Madness is amazing.. Wp debuff when most of your attacks can attack Wp + very high speed for objective grabbing.

[Necromorph]

Yeah, I don't know, I really don't think I would ever use her avatar again, unfortunately. Here's the thing, all these lists we're throwing out there are complete diversions from how kirai usually seems to run successfully (from what I've used/seen played). You have to tailor a list around her, and completely alter your playstyle just to use her avatar...which is mediocre at best as far as these avatars go. The Gaki/NT swarm isn't a bad idea, but you'll need hitters or you'll never be able to kill anything, (your avatar will be a support role in dg dealing at best) granted you can sacrifice with Gaki, but you get the point.

The avatar itself is just really underwhelming. It's damage is average with cb7, possibly cb9...not bad, but not a whole lot better than Ikiryo in the first place as it's not paired. IMO her attacks should be paired OR should have kept their 3/4/6 dg spread from her stat card (yes they verified the book3 stats over the stat card for those who didn't see the post). Also, she has a couple nice pushes and the ability to move to friendly models in combat, but compared to her Master form mobility it just seems lackluster (is it me, or does she have some similar mechanics to the Viks avatar...without a cb8 paired 4/5/7 minimum dg melee weapon?). Granted, she is a spirit...but hell, even Levi is a 10wd spirit in his A form, and he comes back, haha.

To me, it seems like you gain a couple push tricks and get to keep ikiryo's melee attack, but lose the majority of her mobility, healing, and utility when you manifest. To me (and this ofc is all IMO), she isn't ever really worth it to manifest unless you're having fun. For those that defend her, and please, don't think I'm saying she CAN'T be used, this is just my opinion, she won't be "competing" strongly in the game, but she is fun while she's on the table, I can at least say that much.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Necromorph

[Calmdown]

I haven't seen Insidious Madness with Kirai before. What is the role of the madness in that crew?

It's fast as hell for grabbing objectives or teleporting to/swirling with, hands out Wp debuffs in a crew where half of the models can attack Wp, and can help you win initiative the turn after you just dumped a pile of spirits into your opponent's face.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree Madness is a very good addition to Kirai. I need to do some more testing, but if you don't need or intend to make it your priority to kill an opponent's Master or Henchman you might consider bringing 2 Madness instead of Jack Daw.

[DeleteAccount]

Well, I do have to comment that I'm still in the 25-30 soulstone phase of the game, at 35 I could fit

Kirai

5seishin

Lost love

Shikome

10 souls of gaki/onryo/madness/horrors

and get avatar while keeping 6 stones.

And a thing I did notice when I avatared was being able to have the Ikirio melee beatdown while being able to actually use stones, some unimpresive drawing is the only thing that stopped me from nuking a victoria the turn I manifested and depending on the initiative, I would be able to murder both. Though I'm also bummed at her damage slot being 2/3/5, she is making a lot of attacks on her own activation and though her movement shenanigans seem to be lighter compared to her normal potential, she also gains the ability to move enemy models and in the 6th turn in a claim jump, being able to push everything away from the marker can be game winning.

I do admit she is no Seamus that you tend to manifest the moment you have a decent chance of doing it, but those 2 souls seem like a solid idea to me just because of being able to do an unexpected change of pace. Hell, she can pretty much do her thing even if you have a crap hand since her only really interesting spell that requires anything is the push one and low rams are enough to get her retaliation trigger going unlike Kirai who needs a med high mask almost every turn and highish crows to get don't blink shenanigans going.