Seamus learning experiences

[Stonedog-7]

So my first game with Seamus last night (no avatar) and i found myself almost tripping over some of his abilities a bit thanks to guild high WP and high weak damage

On the one hand i wanted Seamus activating early for the WP debuff (damn Death Marshalls and their Fear not Death +2WP) but on the other hand i wanted him activating later to take better advantage of being able to heal himself with Live for Pain and position for his flintlock/charging with slit jugular

And on top of that i almost found the Flintlock too powerful as i cheated myself out of my own scheme (Grudge) trying to weaken the death marshall i was going after and instead flipping moderate damage despite a :-fate for damage... that said as Hard to Kill saved him from an onslaughting Lady J a turn later i was also insanely happy about how tough he is despite having to burn stones like mad for defence

Finally his cache of 2 makes things really awkward including everything you want in a list, i was hoping to squeeze in a Night Terror or two but really couldn't justify it, instead i ran - Seamus (6SS), Copycat, Sybelle, 3x Rotten Belles, Convict Gunslinger @30stones

The Belles performed exceptionally considering the issues of WP8 Death Marshalls and weak damage shots of 3 thanks to crit strike (getting bored of that ability fast)... though Sybelle didn't really do much besides finishing off a belle so Seamus could heal, will be giving her another few more games before i drop her

And finally the Convict Gunslinger... first time we've seen him in action locally and i'm really impressed... weak damage 2 isn't much but putting out SO many accurate shots with 4 one turn and 5 the next, he even finished off Lady J... can see him turning up in alot of my rezzers builds to lend some reliable firepower

Any extra advice for a budding Seamus player? Lists, tricks, anything i should definitely try or avoid?

[Calmdown]

The problem with most Seamus lists I find is that people take too many Belles/other support models, and tend to get overrun by combative lists.

Also, Seamus' lists dont tend to kill models in one activation or even one turn, so lists that have regeneration or other passive defences tend to give you issues.

My advice for playing Seamus - and for most Rezzers, in fact - is not to fall into the trap of playing the list "the way it's meant to be played" or "the fluffy way" as it doesn't really work. Look at models like Von Schill, Dead Rider, Punk Zombies, Convict Gunslinger, etc to give your lists hitting power. Seamus brings all the utility/control that your list really needs; dont load up on too much of it outside of him.

Also you're right, Seamus needs a lot more than 2SS. His low cache is one of the reasons he struggles.

As an example, here's a "nontraditional" 35ss Seamus list, based around solid minions rather than the oldschool "all belle" lineup:

Seamus +2ss

Grave Spirit

Dead Rider

Von Schill

3x Belles

[Stonedog-7]

Thanks Calmdown, not quite sure about running a list with Von Schill and only 4ss spare as Seamus & him will be clamouring for them, but it's certainly something else to think on as i always forget that Von Schill is there as a Henchman option outside of Outcasts

From seeing them in action i'm definitely thinking 3 Belles is about right, 6 Lures, even with most being resisted were getting a lot of work done, particularly when my opponent pulled a bad control hand and couldn't stop them reeling a marshall in

But i'm definitely looking more at damage minions than more support pieces for exactly the reason you stated, the seamus "standard" setup drags people down a bit too slowly so i was aready eyeing up Hanged or maybe a Flesh Construct from what i have already or something like the Punk zombies or Dead Rider you suggested in terms of picking up something new, a lone PZ with grave spirit attached appeals as a cheap beatstick... and figuring the Night Terrors over Necropunks for movement strategies too as Seamus doesn't need the corpse counters

[Murphy'sLawyer]

An all Belle list does lack the hitting power that other lists bring, hence Avatar Seamus being such a Beast and the Rouge Necromancy being available to Molly, but I agree that Von Schill is a tough sell with Seamus.

That said Seamus' crew is not one to bring if you want a "Smashy" list. His crew tends toward the Terror checks and WP debuffs. Even nasty WP models like the Death Marshals can have a hard time after you hit them with multiple debuffs.

Also as you mentioned the Hanged is great with Seamus and more so with the Grave Spirit attached to him.

Also when you get to 35+ games look into Molly and Seamus' Avatar as it makes Seamus' "fluffy" lists more competitive along with being fun.

Now if you want a hard hitting crew that is good at causing damage look into McMourning.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I second the Molly addition. I'm still testing her but I find that with Seamus she is often a better target to put bodyguard on if you take that scheme, because of all the defensive abilities she has, as well as her slow to die action, which when coupled with use Soulstone makes for a very hard to kill model. The think I love about her however if A Terrible Secret which lets you hand out -2 twists to attack and defense duels in a 12" range. Hit something with that, and then chain lure your target into a nest of Belles, and even Belles then will seem to be combat monkeys.

[Calmdown]

I second the Molly addition. I'm still testing her but I find that with Seamus she is often a better target to put bodyguard on if you take that scheme, because of all the defensive abilities she has, as well as her slow to die action, which when coupled with use Soulstone makes for a very hard to kill model. The think I love about her however if A Terrible Secret which lets you hand out -2 twists to attack and defense duels in a 12" range. Hit something with that, and then chain lure your target into a nest of Belles, and even Belles then will seem to be combat monkeys.

That's not how it works in practice, though. You can --flip something and Lure it in all you want, but at the end of the day the Belle still has poor damage and you're going to require a large AP investment across multiple models to kill anything. And as you've invested 9 points into Molly to get those negative flips, you've pushed your lists even further into the realm of "all support, no meat".

In addition, Molly is as SS hungry as Von Schill is. More even, because she's so easy to kill (her trigger is great but very expensive).

Don't get me wrong, I do love Molly, but she doesnt make up for the lack of hard hitter.

Also, a note on Punk Zombies related to an above comment: their consistency in hitting is great, but your positioning has to be perfect with them for them to be effective; 1" melee range means they basically have to stand *exactly* where you think your Belles are going to land a model in order to effectively hit it. Most factions get good 5-6ss models with +1 AP abilities, Rezzers dont, and you really feel that in lists like this. Sebastian is actually about the best choice here, as once an enemy is debuffed and lured then his damage line and +1 AP come into play and his poor Cb is obviated.

The problem with all this, and back to my original issue with Seamus - is that by the time you've bought 3 Belles and Molly, you're out of points to spend on big stuff. 21 points on support, no matter how good support it may be, is a lot, and that was what led me to eventually abandon the Molly/Belles list. Even if you drop to 2 Belles, you dont have much room to add an actual fighting force. This may change a bit with aSeamus, but he may not go very far to addressing the problem, because when he avatars you then have to deal with the additional issue of keeping him alive (not to mention the 2-3 turns of him operating at reduced effectiveness in order to fulfil avatar requirements).

Edited September 5, 2011 by Calmdown

[Stonedog-7]

@ Murphy'sLawyer - Oddly enough i do also have a McMourning crew that i'm working on, though with that i'm trying to shy away from the use of too many dogs so maybe i'm just trying to get slightly different approaches to each master than normal *shrug*... the avatar is something i definitely want to get, but don't want to jump in on, i'd rather learn the basic caster first and see what strengths/weaknesses there are

And i'll definitely look at Molly, just we've been playing 25 & 30ss games at the moment locally so it leaves things a bit tight to add a henchman

As for a "smashy" crew, not necessarily after that, but with the lures i do want to be able to target something, reel it in and remove it fairly quickly and reliably, maybe even 2 targets a turn and it just seemed tricky to do if i considered upping the number of basic belles as opposed to getting some more hitting power in there

@ FetidStrumpet - I will get round to looking at Molly, but without Rising Powers that'll probably wait until i pick up her box for the rogue necromancy

Sebastian is another good thought, i love him with McMourning, just don't yet think of him working with the other masters, i've still got to get used to how flexible the list construction can be in this game

[Fetid Strumpet]

I see what you are saying Calmdown, and it might be an issue with play style or just local meta, but I find that the Terrible secret spam casting turns the Belles into combat beasts against the targeted models. It does this because with a negative 2 twist the defense of the opposing model is often very low, which will mean that the Rotten Belles can either chose to use their parasol for the higher dmg line it offers, or they can stick with their teeth and nails, to go for a higher spread and a possibility of Rot. With the debuff on the enemy it makes it much easier to get the severe dmg out of the Belles.

Seamus himself and his gun help account for more deaths, and I often bring a convict gunslinger as well. A double negative twist on defense helps the Gunslinger rapid fire more often as well as I can often chose a lower mask value from the paired strike and still hit because of where the enemy's defense ends up.

I'm still testing Molly so I have to say in time I might have to acknowledge you were right, but in a recent game that consisted of Seamus Vs. Perdita my crew pretty much wiped out Perdita's (although I didn't touch her *grumble*) and Seamus didn't take a single casualty (although I have a few Belles floating around at 1 wound left).

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I do hear and understand your argument Calmdown, yet I believe we may look at the game differently. I don't play a Seamus crew for a killy list just like I don't play a Pandora list as a Killy list. In fact I don't play Lilith's crew as an all killy list. I play for VP which is not reliant on killing all of your opponent's models the majority of the time.

My point being Seamus is going to need some hard hitting models but he does work better when you bring models that play to his strengths. Terror.

An all Belles list outside of a fun list is not advised bit I also don't advise loading Seamus up on a Smashy list either. There are masters that thrive on that kind of lists but he is not one of them.

I see bring a Deathrider, Rouge Necromancy, or other undead beasts in lists that have the points to play with, 30+, but otherwise find it counter productive to Seamus' strengths.

Convict Gunslinger, the Hanged, Punk Zombies, and the Croaked Men are good adds to Seamus for their average point costs.

Again I suggestif you want a solid smashing list Seamus is not it. He is more about Board Manipulation and causing Terror.

(I have won more than a couple games where I had no models left on the table and my opponent focused on killing my whole crew. They had half if not more of their crew left and they earned 5 to 0 VP. All those times I had my full 8 VP. this was of course with my main crew Lilith so I still need to test this out with Seamus.)

[Stonedog-7]

Well i think that certainly while the points are at 25-30ss i'll be sticking with 3 Belles (i'm not sure i'd want fewer), the convict gunslinger and one other hard hitter (Punk Zombie/Hanged) if the scenario is going to need a kill and Terrors if it'll need more movement

Molly's double-negatives are sounding very nice though, will look forward to trying that out in high SS games and once the box is released

[Mergoth]

At 30 ss I find the following to be pretty balanced against pretty much all comers.

Ressurectionists Crew - 30 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter -- 7 Cache

Grave Spirit [1ss]

Convict Gunslinger [6ss]

Dead Rider [10ss]

Rotten Belles [4ss]

Rotten Belles [4ss]

Seamus needs all those SS in his pool since he soaks up a LOT of damage, the gunslinger tends to ping things to death after a Belle lures them into his sights (rapid fire + trigger happy ftw) and Dead Rider is a hard to take down beatstick who can also play disruption with mounted combat and drag built in. Grave Spirit tends to die to blasts, but helps Dead Rider soak up more damage.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Dead Rider with the Gravespirit does look very tempting. Luring the enemy in for him to hack off a head just seems so juicy.

I myself would likely switch out the Gunslinger for a Dead Doxy (Love his gun, but would want a more support model to go with the lure and raise idea here.) becuase if she can cast Undress the target model has no chance.

Defiantly a good list to drag in targets for corpse counters so we can dance with more Belles.

Have to try this.

[Calmdown]

Dead Rider with the Gravespirit does look very tempting. Luring the enemy in for him to hack off a head just seems so juicy.

I've been playing it in most of my lists since I first posted about it a few weeks ago. It's a really strong combo. The fact that the Grave Spirit is so cheap for what he does makes up for the fact that the Dead Rider is so expensive, so it kinda feels less bad taking the big guy.

He still suffers from very poor damage output for a 10 point model, though, and vulnerability to being plinked to death. And not the easiest thing in the world to use properly in tight terrain, either.

[Mergoth]

He still suffers from very poor damage output for a 10 point model, though, and vulnerability to being plinked to death. And not the easiest thing in the world to use properly in tight terrain, either.

He does tend to die - but it generally takes most of a crew 1-3 turns to pull it off. And remember his damage output gets better as he takes damage.

Regards mobility, I've never once had a problem with that. Scout and Pass Through on a big guy is amazing, and with mounted combat he can go straight through a group of enemies and pluck out whoever you want. Say, Rasputina for instance. Range 3 on the scythe is also pretty amazing. I've used him to pull nasty enemies away from squishy models, pull people off of buildings (!) and off of objectives on the last turn of the game.

[Calmdown]

He does tend to die - but it generally takes most of a crew 1-3 turns to pull it off. And remember his damage output gets better as he takes damage.

Regards mobility, I've never once had a problem with that. Scout and Pass Through on a big guy is amazing, and with mounted combat he can go straight through a group of enemies and pluck out whoever you want. Say, Rasputina for instance. Range 3 on the scythe is also pretty amazing. I've used him to pull nasty enemies away from squishy models, pull people off of buildings (!) and off of objectives on the last turn of the game.

Absolutely. Melee 3" and 6" move, plus mounted combat, are great. But every other Rider has them for 8-9 points

But... if you need to Pass Through your own models or over severe terrain to get around the table, you only have 2 ap that turn, which is bad. That's one melee attack with mounted combat at a 13" threat range, and his damage isn't particularly great with his lack of triggers. Also it's easy for your enemy to neuter him by dumping 3 point models next to him and making sure his prime mounted combat targets aren't in stupid positions, holding up 11 points of your model for a turn while he kills them or asking you to risk disengaging strikes with a very un-stellar defence. "Plucking" only really happens if you have a full 3AP to spend to get the distance required to utilise it properly, or if you started your turn close enough to the enemy that you're likely to be taking fire.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but he's a hell of a points sink and incredibly easy to shut down. Lelus, Lord Chompy Bits, Marionettes, Shikome, Nephilim with Black Blood, blasts, pulses, and more will all turn your 11 points of investment into a slightly rotten-smelling metallic vapour in no time.

[Mergoth]

The other riders don't all heal 3 WD a turn.

Mounted Combat is also a push - so no disengaging strikes to worry about. I also use it when he is surrounded to pass through (with a push move) and take a choice target with him. Nothing really stops him from dragging an important model through terrain and across the board all game. Rasputina and Ramos weep.

[demkoenig]

I've been wondering about running 3 Belles, 2 PZ, and Sebastian with Seamus.

The Belles lure them in and PZ and Sebastian chop 'em up. Seamus and the Copycat shoot up whatever gets out of line.

Still adjusting to the Rezzers, but I got all 4 masters now!

[Calmdown]

I've been wondering about running 3 Belles, 2 PZ, and Sebastian with Seamus.

The Belles lure them in and PZ and Sebastian chop 'em up. Seamus and the Copycat shoot up whatever gets out of line.

Still adjusting to the Rezzers, but I got all 4 masters now!

That's what I ran for a bit, basically. It worked, but it's not competition for the better lists out there. Sebastian is cool but poor Cb, Punk Zombies suffer from lack of attacks and melee range (its amazing how much you miss having a 2" melee when you're luring stuff around trying to drop it on a penny).

You really need to run at least Dead Rider or Von Schill in Seamus to get yourself something with decent offensive power.

[Bigkid]

You really need to run at least Dead Rider or Von Schill in Seamus to get yourself something with decent offensive power.

Or try Avatar Seamus?

[Calmdown]

Or try Avatar Seamus?

aSeamus is not an offensive powerhouse, he's a control powerhouse. And in any case, you want threats on the table from turn 1.

The thing people dont realise or account for quite often, is that having no threats on the table and just aiming for objectives is fine in theory, until an aggressive list comes along and runs at your headlong because it has no fear of retribution. If that happens, you may not have time to get aSeamus out, or by the time you do it could be too late.

[Mergoth]

Or try Avatar Seamus?

That's a viable option. Bear in mind you might not always manifest him before turn 4-5 or at all, depending on what you're up against (don't manifest vs a shooty crew like the Ortegas).

How much damage he can cause isn't obvious at first glance, until you take into account the sheer volume of wicked parting strikes he gets to make. 50mm base + up to 4" range fists is a MASSIVE bubble. Last game I used him, the turn he manifested he killed 5 models, and chased a badly wounded ARasputina off the board. Just make sure to manifest him close enough to the action that he can get into melee to benefit from get bloody.

[Cornelious1424]

I agree, aSeams is still very control based. Anyone who fails to see that isn't reading his rules right.

Running Seamus with just Belles before book 2 and 3 worked, and worked real well, now he needs some damage output to be effective. Sometimes you really can't avoid confrontation with the enemy, making them dead might be the only viable option. Belles aren't going to be killing much. I like a PZ or two, it seems to work fairly well. I still haven't tried the Dead Rider yet to know much about it, however he does seem a tad too pricey.

[Sevorin]

I just played a 25pt game tonight with Seamus that was completely frustrating. I ran the boxed set + Grave Spirit, my opponent ran the dreamer, 3 daydreams, and 2 teddys.

After the first turn I realized I would be doing nothing against this crew and hoped to just go for my objectives (treasure hunt, and stake a claim). My opponent just dropped the teddys in melee within 3 belles so I had to deal with them, and LCB in melee with Seamus. My belles were positioned in such a way (and so were his models) that any lures would not have been able to get any of them out of combat, so I was stuck in it (I'd would have loved to be able to lure Seamus out and shoot, but as it was going to turn out, that would have done nothing even if I could have). Being that He left LCB out I activated Seamus hoping to do SOMETHING, but all 3 of my melee attacks were facing 24+ defenses, I got one through with a slit jugular, which he threw 2 cards off and LCB took 1 wound.

At that point (3rd turn) I knew if I couldnt even do anything to LCB with what I had there it was pretty pointless to continue the game. I was unable to get to any of my objectives and he had gotten 2 already. It was definitely demoralizing.

I refuse to give up though. Im looking to try 2 belles and 2 PZ's and the GS to see if I can make a bit more out of that.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

24+ Defences? What?

Was he cheating high and burning SS? If so sounds like you just had a bad hand. LCB has an awful defence of 4 and you should of had the advantage.

He hits super hard but has no defensive capabilities.10 wounds with no way to negate the damage naturally he is a big glass cannon.

Am I missing something here, because if you survived two rounds to hit him he should have been dead.

[Sevorin]

Yeah, he cheated then soulstoned each hit. His soulstone flips were 10, 12, and a 13 for each attack. I was able to hit him once.

And it was only one round that I was in combat with him. After a round of doing 1 damage and over run I called it.