New tactics with Nekima, Mature,etc.

[micahwc]

Having played a few games with Terraclips I have discovered a tactic which can work well in certain situations. Nekima and the Mature Nephilim both have triggers which allow them to push models they attack. This is probably obvious, but using the push to push enemy models off of buildings is awesome.

Nekima's minimum damage of 4 combined with an uncheatable 2/4/6 dagame flip can be very effective.

Throwing Seamus and 4 Belles off of a roof was one of the most entertaining moments in my Malifaux experience.

[Q'iq'el]

Yup. The mechanics causing people to fall and die from terrain has always been greatly underused, due to lack of 3d terrain. Lone towers and houses on traditional tables mean people can simply avoid going up there, if there's a risk of getting pushed down. Even typical tabletop hills are too small and tactically insignificant for that (at least most of the time).

A truly 3D terrain, with terraces, balconies and bridges does force people to actually get up there and fight in dangerous places.

[micahwc]

My opponent had a strategy requiring him to be on top of the building (claim jump I think), which turned out to be a tactical mistake on his part. Most of my models had flight or float; his did not. 3D terrain make push effects much more deadly.

Off the top of my head the following Neverborn models can do this: Lilith via Earthquake, Nekima with her sword trigger, Mature Nephilim via wing buffet or its knock aside trigger, Lilitu via Lure, Zoraida with repulsive or obey, the doppelganger copying any of these abilities, the poltergeist I think, and totems belonging to Zoraida or Lilith.

Damage 2/4/6 uncheatable is really helpfull against belles and other hard to wound targets.

[Calmdown]

Yup. The mechanics causing people to fall and die from terrain has always been greatly underused, due to lack of 3d terrain. Lone towers and houses on traditional tables mean people can simply avoid going up there, if there's a risk of getting pushed down. Even typical tabletop hills are too small and tactically insignificant for that (at least most of the time).

A truly 3D terrain, with terraces, balconies and bridges does force people to actually get up there and fight in dangerous places.

Yep, Belles are like artillery pieces on 3D terrain.

Rezzers are OP.

Shame that Lilitu lures better so this doesnt change the balance of power

[Cunning]

Don't forget than lured targets will always take the safest route available so unless they have no other option they wont be falling off anything.

[micahwc]

Don't forget than lured targets will always take the safest route available so unless they have no other option they wont be falling off anything.

I did not realize this, oh well. It still works well with some other models.

Nekima's trigger states that if the enemy model is pushed into a terrain feature it takes 2 more damage. Is the ground considered a terrain feature? I would guess not, but I can hope.

[Q'iq'el]

Nah. A terrain feature is something that has a base. Every terrain has a base. If you have something without a physical base (like a Terraclips house), you assume there's a "virtual" base under it. If the model falls from the bridge and hits a house or a tree's base, then you can argue it takes 2Dg in addition to the fall, but note that the Throw Aside attack won't necessarily force people to fall down (see below).

The tricky part that people may get wrong is that the base is everywhere under such a feature or building (or in its shade if you prefer), so balconies, outside stairs and even bridges between two buildings have a terrain base under them (and such a bridge turns two buildings into one terrain feature).

Going back to the topic - everything that either pushes directly away, or directly towards your model is capable of making the models take a plunge. So in case of Nekima, Meat for the Young works, but Throw Aside doesn't. Lure won't work unless there's no other way to go.

I think Lilith's Earthquake wouldn't work, but I'm not 100% sure (as that's a directional push, not towards/away case). Mature Nephilim is definitely capable of doing it, but it's worth remembering he does it instead of causing damage - damage from the fall is not always guaranteed to be higher than the damage flip.

From the undead models I own, IIRC, only the Flesh Construct has such an ability.

Taelor, among mercenaries, can Knocback things, which too can cause a drop.

As far as the damage from falling is involved, rules are on the page 38. The most important part is, that you need to fall at least 3" for the damage to happen. That translates to Ht3.

A Terraclips wall is Ht2, so a fall from the 2nd floor won't cause any damage. From the 3rd up it becomes dangerous. If you fall from the ht6 (4th floor), you make 2 damage flips (a flip per 3") and end up taking 4~12 Dg.

Obviously, there are other kinds of terrain than can kill things easier. A river of Lava or a chasm can be kill/kill/kill. There's nothing preventing you from declaring a sewer to be toxic and cause serious damage or poison anyone who falls in etc. etc. So 3D terrain isn't exactly necessary if you really want to make this a factor. The thing is, people usually don't want to and Terraclips is one of the ways to make it so - unlike terrain-caused damage people can always agree not to play with (as the terrain attributes are subject to mutual agreement), falling is in the core rules and happens on any terrain as long as it is high enough.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[magicpockets]

Don't forget than lured targets will always take the safest route available so unless they have no other option they wont be falling off anything.

IIRC that's slightly wrong, they can avoid Hazardous Terrain - but falling off a building isn't hazardous terrain

[Q'iq'el]

IIRC that's slightly wrong, they can avoid Hazardous Terrain - but falling off a building isn't hazardous terrain

Actually they can move so that you can avoid any terrain, not just hazardous. (page 35).

This indeed is a bit of a puzzler. A tall structure, even if it is integral part of the table, is by definition a piece of terrain (a mountain, a cliff, a terrace, a bridge etc.). When you fall from it, you are either within the same terrain (if you fall on the same terrain's base), you are out of terrain (outside of any base) or fall on different terrain (another base).

I think in this last case you can avoid falling as that would lead to entering new terrain and you are explicitly allowed to avoid that with movement non-directly toward/away from.

I think it makes sense to play it so that models being pushed towards/away can avoid falling if there's another route. Either way, this is allowed only if such a movement still brings the model closer to the target, so in many cases the fall would still be inevitable.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[micahwc]

Okay, I am now completely confused with Nekima's triggers. I don't have the card in front of me as I am at work, but I was sure that one allowed you to push an enemy model 2 inches. I do not remember it specifying a direction, and we assumed that you could move it in any direction. The model in question was less than 2 inches from a ledge and took a plunge. Is this wrong?

[psychocamel]

Okay, I am now completely confused with Nekima's triggers. I don't have the card in front of me as I am at work, but I was sure that one allowed you to push an enemy model 2 inches. I do not remember it specifying a direction, and we assumed that you could move it in any direction. The model in question was less than 2 inches from a ledge and took a plunge. Is this wrong?

I think the confusion is one person mentioned a lure effect, which can take a safer path, while most of the thread was discussing Nekima's ability to throw people around.

I could be wrong, but I believe you are right in that Nekima's ability to throw people can indeed be in anyway you choose.

[Q'iq'el]

Nekima has two triggers:

• Throws Aside - it's a push away effect.
  
• Meat for the Young - it's a push directly toward effect.
  

When you push away, you can choose the direction, but the model can move so that it avoid terrain (same as Lure). The model must end the push further away from Nekima than it started, so it cannot go safe route always, but if there is a safe route to take which fulfills the conditions it can.

Falling, as it's been pointed out (and which I've been wrong about), doesn't equal going into terrain. As long as there's no terrain base under the drop (and it isn't the base of the same terrain the model falls off from), you probably cannot avoid the fall. This applies to Lure too. Still, you have to remember the target can change the path it takes to avoid terrain, so depending on terrain it can modify the direction you push it at a bit and avoid the fall (for example, if there's a wall to cross right before the drop, the model may elect to go around the wall, as long as it ends up further away from Nekima).

The second trigger, is a "directly towards" push, where you must move the target towards a friendly Nephilim within 10". You cannot choose direction freely (there may be several options though), but the model cannot choose the route - direct pushes are always along the straight line. Normally impassable terrain would mean the target would stop, but Nekima adds 2 Dg to it if the model ends up in the contact with terrain. Last but not least, there's definitely no way to avoid taking a fall, even if there's the base of different terrain feature at the bottom.

[cain]

When you push away, you can choose the direction, but the model can move so that it avoid terrain

Nekimas Throw away trigger does extra damage when the target touches terrain after the push.

Would be impossible if the target could avoid the terrain isnt it?

[Mister_Q]

I've had fun with this by flying a young Nephilim up to a nice high spot and then using Lilith to Transposition it with an enemy, followed by Earthquake to knock them off. When she's waiting at the bottom to catch the victim with her Greatsword it's even better.

[Q'iq'el]

Nekimas Throw away trigger does extra damage when the target touches terrain after the push.

Would be impossible if the target could avoid the terrain isnt it?

Not that simple.

1. She does extra damage only if the target *ENDS* the push touching terrain. You can go through a piece of terrain and not get damaged, as long as you clear it.

2. The target can avoid moving through terrain *ONLY* if it can still get further away from her than it started.

There are possible situations where the target has no way but end up touching terrain and that's when it gets 2Dg.

[Ratty]

Also remember distances are Horizontal. A flying model can look miles away, (eg. at the top of a 12" building) but only be 6" as the Jack Daw flies. I have had a few games where the opponent thought that he had a Claim Jump and I just swooped down and contested it on the last turn

[Q'iq'el]

Ratty, is it still so when it comes to the newest RM? I thought the reason all the auras and blasts received Ht is because Ht started to matter distance-wise?

[eldritch]

• Throws Aside - it's a push away effect.

It's not.

[Q'iq'el]

So how a push works if it isn't away/directly away (or toward)? I sort of assumed all the forced movement falls into one of these categories automatically - see page 35.

There are pushes which are result of your own ability, which affect models under your control and thus are not forced movement. These are just like extra movement and unless they are not directly towards/away, they don't have to happen in a straight line either. They may allow for long range movement if they are to be "within x"" or "completely within x"" pushes, but that's it.

There are pushes which force the opponent to move - as such they fall into one of two categories on the page 35, don't they?

And if it is possible to have a forced movement push, without the push falling into one of the two categories on the page 35, the opponent still would be able to choose the path the model takes, right? (The fact that you force him to move doesn't mean you gain control over his model.) Because there's nothing forcing the push to be in a straight line, unless it is a directly-away movement.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[eldritch]

And if it is possible to have a forced movement push' date=' without the push falling into one of the two categories on the page 35, the opponent still would be able to choose the path the model takes, right? (The fact that you force him to move doesn't mean you gain control over his model.) Because there's nothing forcing the push to be in a straight line, unless it is a directly-away movement.[/quote']

I'd assume that the controller of the effect gets to determine everything about it, barring additional restrictions (eg. pg 35) that the effect may be subject to. I'm not even sure that pg 35 'allows' the opponent to determine the push. From what I can tell, when pg 35 applies, the rules determine the push, with choices between equally legal conditions determined by the controller of the effect.

[Q'iq'el]

I'd assume that the controller of the effect gets to determine everything about it, barring additional restrictions (eg. pg 35) that the effect may be subject to. I'm not even sure that pg 35 'allows' the opponent to determine the push. From what I can tell, when pg 35 applies, the rules determine the push, with choices between equally legal conditions determined by the controller of the effect.

Push is just a movement effect. It doesn't give you control over the models the other side uses and there's no single line in RM, as far as I can say, that gives you such control, unless it is a forced movement.

But to be forced movement, it requires it to be push away/towards or push directly away/towards.

Nekima's ruleset is older than the Rules Manual. The wording of Throw Away must have fallen through.

IMHO, there are only three ways to play it right now:

- Houserule it to work exactly like Mature Nephilim's (Throw Aside/Knock Aside - similar triggers after all, and his is "push directly away").

- Houserule it to be "push away" (because there's no indication of the more restrictive "directly away" in the text).

- Give the opposing player full control and let him push wherever he wants.