Chompy/Dreamer "Immediate" activation and turn timing...

[Mr_Smigs]

Ok: Scenario:

Player A activates model with FAST manages to move to, and kill The Dreamer on their 2nd action (1 action remaining)

Player B gets Chompy summoned into play, and according to the One Master rule, activates immediately (In the middle of the other model's activation)

Chompy KILLS the model with Fast.

Chompy's activation ends.

The Fast model's controller (Player A) isn't in the middle of an activation (their model was killed during Chompy's activation), but the Chompy controller (Player has just finished an activation.

How does turn order continue? why?

[Hatchethead]

My best guess:

Chompy's activation would not occur until after the Fast model spends it's final AP and ends it's activation. An activation cannot occur within another activation. Yes, Chompy activates "immediately", but that still doesn't interrupt the current activation.

I believe the immediate activation interrupts and occurs outside of the activation order. If I'm correct, the Neverborn player would activate another model following Chompy, returning to the original order.

I could be way wrong on both counts, of course.

[poulpox]

Hatchet is right. Chompy has to wait for the fast model to finish its whole activation, then has to activate, and finally playerB then activates a 2nd model after Chompy returning the activation phase to its normal order.

Chompy's activation is "inserted" in the normal sequence; so if you had a sequence like PlayerA (model X), PlayerB (model Y), PlayerA (model Z) and chompy © is unburried when during X's activation, you would have to finish completely X's activation (RM p31 at the bottom), and would then have a new sequence like this: X,C,Y,Z

Edited August 25, 2011 by poulpox

[pgbsamurai]

Just adding one more affirmative to Hatchetheads explanation. I know it was covered in another post, but can't find it at the moment.

.... damn, I have the bacon and a high enough casting, but missing the extra :crows... can never summon a Hatchethead when I need one.

[Hatchethead]

.... damn, I have the bacon and a high enough casting, but missing the extra :crows... can never summon a Hatchethead when I need one.

I know, right? And when don't you need a Hatchethead?

Even Nico needs a 13:crows.

[Mr_Smigs]

threads I've seen:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19197&highlight=chompy+activation

no resolution, or explanation why.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22565&highlight=chompy+activation

only about multiple actions inside one player's activation

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16705&page=4&highlight=chompy+activation

argues saying the activation interrupts

To summarize, LCB/Dreamer's "immediately activates" does interrupt the currently activating model's activation. The latter is resumed once LCN/Dreamer has finished his activation.

So:

. model X activates and kills a daydream

. upon dying Daydream releases LCB

. LCB activates

. model X finishes its activation if it still had some actions to do

so at that, I stop since it was in the “resolved rules” questions...

leaving us back at the first question

[poulpox]

Yes I remember this thread, it was done before the RM was out, and had been ruled that LCB was in effect interrupting the current model's activation; however when Wyrd released the RM it had the new and current rule mechanic on p31, which stipulates that a model which "acitvates immediately" does so only once the current activating model has finished its activation.

The rule was resolved at the time, it's just that the RM changed it (since pre and post RM posts are mixed in the same folder sometimes it's hard to know which are still apllying or not!)

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Poulpox and Hatchethead are correct.

[Mr_Smigs]

right on.

thanks for the clarity... something's still bugging me about this, but until i can check my manual, i don't want to ask more...

[Dolomyte]

If the ruling is a model has to finish its activation before the next model can interrupt. Wouldent all of the companions need to finish, being they are going simultaineously. Before say ophelia could 0 action activate the pigapult.

Seems contradictory

[Buhallin]

If the ruling is a model has to finish its activation before the next model can interrupt. Wouldent all of the companions need to finish, being they are going simultaineously. Before say ophelia could 0 action activate the pigapult.

Seems contradictory

You can change the model that activates next.

You cannot activate in the middle of a model's activation.

Two completely different things.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If the ruling is a model has to finish its activation before the next model can interrupt. Wouldent all of the companions need to finish, being they are going simultaineously. Before say ophelia could 0 action activate the pigapult.

Seems contradictory

Ophelia could use her (0) Action but then Chompy would Activate before the Pigapult. Then your opponent would continue with the (0) Action or the companion chain.

It's not contradictory at all. And it's been ruled as such before.

Edited August 25, 2011 by WEiRD sKeTCH

[Hatchethead]

Immediate activation creates a new activation nested within a companion group activation. The current model's companioned activation ends, the immediate activation beings (during which a new companion group could potentially be declared and completed, all nested within the original companion chain which remains on hold) after which the original companion group activation resumes where it was put on hold and completes.

[Mr_Smigs]

Ok, looking at pg 31.

Confused.

Once the player has completed all of the activations, activation passes to the next player in activation order

A model allowed to activate immediately by an effect does so before any other model activates, but after the current model's activation ends

ok... I don't see where it says a player that gets an "Activate immediately" gets to break turn order.

basically,

model gets popped, chompy gets placed (will "immediately activate")

current activation ends (activation passes)

chompy activates.

so... why does the chompy player get a second activation?

wasn't he just forced to use it to activate chompy?

[Therapist]

Edited to: stupid second page was hiding from me

Edited August 26, 2011 by Therapist

[Hatchethead]

It occurs independent of the activation order. When the Dreamer buries, for instance, he passes his remaining AP and ends his activation, at which point his opponent should be permitted activate a model (as per the activation order). Instead, Chompy "activates immediately" and interrupts, granting the Neverborn two back-to-back activations. Once he is done, the turn order resumes and the Dreamer's opponent activates a model.

It's the same principal in your example, except in your case Chompy activates immediately following one of his opponent's models, interrupting the order. Following this, when the activation order resumes, it is still Neverborn's turn to activate.

Damn that Chompy! Either way the 'Born get two activations!

I agree though, the RM could be more clear.

[Smokey616]

Quick one for you knowledgeable dudes, from a malifaux newb; Am I right in assuming the Dreamer can, at the start of his activation;

1) "I can fly" (0)

2) Fly 14" (2) (1 paid for by instinctual)

3) Bring out the big, tooth laden, love machine with nightmare friend (0)

Who ripples forth, bare chested and greased up, and proceeds to;

4) Rip something apart (1)

5) Beat it again with it's own soggy end (both with a trigger on it) (1)

6) Hit it with a rather excessive and probably uncalled for third attack (1)

7) Trigger "All done" with third attack

Then bring our loveable bleary eyed 8 yr old back who activates straight away and starts the whole process from step one???

Please tell me this is the case guys!!!! Been playing for short while, and managed to completely miss this little thing, until it popped up a couple of games ago, but I decided not to go through with the slaughter when I saw the sad puppy dog eyes on my malifaux buddy

[Calmdown]

4) Rip something apart (1)

5) Beat it again with it's own soggy end (both with a trigger on it) (1)

6) Hit it with a rather excessive and probably uncalled for third attack (1)

This is literally the best LCB related post I've ever seen.

To answer your question...

Quick one for you knowledgeable dudes, from a malifaux newb; Am I right in assuming the Dreamer can, at the start of his activation;

1) "I can fly" (0)

2) Fly 14" (2) (1 paid for by instinctual)

3) Bring out the big, tooth laden, love machine with nightmare friend (0)

Who ripples forth, bare chested and greased up, and proceeds to;

4) Rip something apart (1)

5) Beat it again with it's own soggy end (both with a trigger on it) (1)

6) Hit it with a rather excessive and probably uncalled for third attack (1)

7) Trigger "All done" with third attack

Then bring our loveable bleary eyed 8 yr old back who activates straight away and starts the whole process from step one???

Please tell me this is the case guys!!!! Been playing for short while, and managed to completely miss this little thing, until it popped up a couple of games ago, but I decided not to go through with the slaughter when I saw the sad puppy dog eyes on my malifaux buddy

Although instinctual says +1, it doesnt actually give +1 AP. +1 is just a note that the ability adds something rather than costing something. Its confusing and bad. So for your Dreamer actions there, you would have used 2 (0) actions and 2 (1) actions.

So when Chompy comes out, he'll only have one (1) action (since Dreamer and LCB can only spend a max of 3 general AP) and then his extra (1) action from Melee Expert, on which you'll want to trigger All Done. Of course, the first one can trigger Onslaught.

And then the Dreamer would have no actions left as you've spent your 3 shared AP.

But as you rightly say..... that third attack is excessive and uncalled for most of the time

Edited August 26, 2011 by Calmdown

[aka_hazard]

just to clarify a little...

1) "I can fly" (0)

2) Fly 14" (2)

3) Bring out the big, tooth laden, love machine with nightmare friend (0) due to instinctual

Who ripples forth, bare chested and greased up, and proceeds to;

4) Rip something apart (1 general AP)

5) Beat it again with it's own soggy end (both with a trigger on it) (Melee Expert)

6) Hit it with a rather excessive and probably uncalled for third attack (1)

7) Trigger "All done" with second attack

Item 6 is incorrect - The Dreamer and LCB can only use a maximum of 3 general AP between them.

Of course if you trigger Onslaught with LCB you get another attack then.

Then bring our loveable bleary eyed 8 yr old back who activates straight away and starts the whole process from step one???

You bring the Dreamer back but as he has already activated he then just stands there waiting for the next turn or to be transported around by some bury/unbury tricks of the Day Dreams.

[Hatchethead]

Burying a model ends it's activation. In the case of Dreamer, if you bury him and bring out Chompy, Dreamer would pass on all of his remaining AP and forfeit any instinctual (0) actions he hasn't used. Chompy would then be placed. When you finish with Chompy and bury him, if for some reason you haven't used all his AP, he would pass on the remaining AP and/or forfeit his Melee Expert AP. Dreamer would then be placed. Since Dreamer has already activated and either spent, passed or forfeited his AP and (0) actions, he would be unable to reactivate ... Remember: A model can only activate once per turn unless an effect specifically allows it to reactivate (like Reactivate ).

Edited August 26, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Mr_Smigs]

If the Dreamer uses 2 (0) actions, does Chompy come into play with no (0) action options?

Or do they only share their regular AP (and thus,effectively have 3 (0) actions, 3 AP, and 1 Melee attack)

(And thanks for the clarity on the Immediate Activation stuff... wish the book was a little clearer on "models granted activations by game effects do not use up a player's normal activation sequence")

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

They each have 2 AP. They are restricted to only being able to use 3 Total AP between the two of them. (Before you ask, no that doesn't mean that one of them can use all three AP.)

Each of them may use their number of (0) Actions allowed them.

[Smokey616]

Cheers muchly for the clarification guys! You dudes are most excellent. I've been gaming for decades and I'm, quite frankly, amazed at how this little malifaux beauty escaped my attention for so long! Keep up the good work wyrd dudes! And you dudes on this forum are gonna be getting questions aplenty from this greenhorn addict.

Quick question #2;

With the Ortega trigger happy trigger, could you theoretically keep going all day if the laws of probability went loco, and provided a deck of cornucopia masks?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Quick question #2;

With the Ortega trigger happy trigger, could you theoretically keep going all day if the laws of probability went loco, and provided a deck of cornucopia masks?

As long as each of the Triggers requirements are met, yes.

[Hatchethead]

If the Dreamer uses 2 (0) actions, does Chompy come into play with no (0) action options?

Or do they only share their regular AP (and thus,effectively have 3 (0) actions, 3 AP, and 1 Melee attack)

(And thanks for the clarity on the Immediate Activation stuff... wish the book was a little clearer on "models granted activations by game effects do not use up a player's normal activation sequence")

I feel your pain. I'm so sure of all this Dreamer stuff only because I spent all last week lurking the NB sub-forum, pestering Rules Marshals and Dreamer players for the exact same info. Someone at my LGS started Dreamer not too long ago and it fell to me as the only forumite to decipher the madness.

Shared Actions works like this:

Dreamer gets 2 general AP and 2 (0) actions (his base and +1 for Instinctual action mod).

Chompy gets 2 general AP, 1 Melee Expert action mod AP and his (0) action.

When Dreamer or Chompy activate, regardless of how many general AP remains in the shared "pool" (a maximum of 3), each model still gets their base (0) action and any specific actions granted by an action modifier (in this case, Melee Expert for LCB and Instinctual for Dreamer).

It should also be noted that, individually, both Chompy and Dreamer can only spend a max of 2 general AP each, just like everyone else. One model alone cannot spend all 3 AP in the shared pool.

So, if Dreamer uses 2 of the general AP in the shared pool then buries, this leaves Chompy only 1. His remaining general AP becomes an automatic Pass action. However, Chompy would still get his (1) Strike for Melee Expert and his (0) action.

On the most basic level, when a model in Malifaux activates, it is granted 2 general AP and a (0) action. If you activate a model and choose to do nothing, ending it's activation without declaring a single action, you have actually declared 2 Pass actions (spending the 2 general AP) and have chosen to forfeit your (0) action (it is lost).

SO! If Dreamer or Chompy buries (or otherwise ends his activation) before spending any or all of the following:

2 general AP

Action mod actions (Melee Master or Instinctual)

Base (0) action

... THEN any remaining general AP are Passed and any remaining action mods and/or base (0) actions are lost as the activation is ended.

So what if they don't use all of their shared AP in a given turn?

If both models have ended their activation (burying counts as ending and each model can only activate once per turn, remember) any general AP remaining in the shared pool is unusable. It's still there (as Pass actions do not count toward the total), but it cannot be used as both models have ended their activation and (technically) declared Pass actions for all general AP that were not otherwise spent. It's like ... there's money in the bank, but they can't make a withdrawal.

Yeeaaaaah. It's all very confusing, and the stat card text doesn't even begin to explain it to a reasonable degree (which would be asking a lot considering the size of the stat cards), but once you sort it out, the whole operation actually makes perfect, logical sense.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Chipacabra]

They each have 2 AP. They are restricted to only being able to use 3 Total AP between the two of them. (Before you ask, no that doesn't mean that one of them can use all three AP.)

Each of them may use their number of (0) Actions allowed them.

Does this contradict the answer Ratty gave me about how many (0) actions the Coryphee Duet can take, or is the Dreamer a different case? He said that when you replace the Coryphees with the Duet, the (0) actions that the individuals used count against what the Duet can do. What is different in Chompy's case?