Nicodem vs. Dreamer: Undertaker's Quest

[emissary]

A good thing to realize, when it comes to Soulstones and Cheating in general, is that they not only represent a scarce and precious resource, but also that they impact the spells differently depending on whether the effects scale or remains binary.

A typical scaling effect is represented by a damage flip. The higher you cheat, the higher you push the total with your Soulstone, the higher both the chance to succeed and the damage caused.

Reanimate or Rigor Mortis are good examples of binary effect spells - you either succeed or fail. Sure, it makes sense to cheat to succeed, but you don't have to cheat very high either - especially in the former case. There may be a tactical reason to cheat/soulstone Rigor Mortis to force it through the opponent's defenses, but it isn't improving the effect in any way.

That's the reason why it is a bit of a waste to use Soulstone on Reanimate. Sure, it may be needed sometimes, but it isn't a very efficient way of using the resource.

I certainly think you can use it this way. You certainly do get a little more mileage out of a soulstone if you can also influence the damage you're about to do. On the other end if you want to look at it that way, if you have to use the soulstone to summon something, you're getting several additional things. You're getting another activation, another set of attacks/abilities, more wounds on the table, another model to do objectives if needed and another threat for your opponent. Yes, a soulstone may increase the damage on decay, but if I use it to summon a Flesh Construct or Rogue Necromancy I get 2+ attacks that turn plus attack in later turns.

I've had a few games where I had to blow 2 soulstones to summon 2 Flesh Constructs, but the fact that those two appeared in their lines turned the battle for me. The extra 4 cards didn't hurt either.

Also, don't forget that if you don't need to worry about the WP problem, you can always sac your models for soulstones later if you really need them. This is great if you have 2+ dogs that you don't need.

[Calmdown]

If you don't have suitable cards in hand and this is the first activation of the turn, there's approx 1/4 chance of getting it through with two casts. If the turn is a bit further along, and you haven't yet encountered those cards, then the chance starts to be somewhat OK. With a soul stone, the chance goes up a bit.

Not to say that trying to cast it just through luck is a good idea in the vast majority of cases, but sometimes it might be worth a shot if a Rogue Necromancy is all you need to win and you have the corpse counters around. Very rarely, though.

5 cards, red joker casts it too.

The odds get higher as you proceed with the turn though. Since summoning will likely/ideally happen later on, you should be aware of how many of those 5 cards have already gone. If you've ditched a few cards from a previous turn (lets say 3) and then drawn a new hand of 6 and don't have it in hand, you've already cut the odds down to 5/45 or 1/9. If you've gone through 20ish cards in your deck already (not unreasonable) you should know how many of those cards you've seen

And then, the thing people often forget, is that you can just cheat in any crow and Soulstone the cast. Even if you only cheat in a 5 or 6 you've still got a pretty good chance of it going off. Or if you just cast, maybe cheat in a high card, and stone hoping for a crow. Or focus and stone. Etc.

Casting high, suited spells isn't very hard when you understand the odds and pay attention to what cards you've already burned.

[emissary]

Agreed. And like all things you just have to go with the flow when stupid odds just happen. My favorite example was when a friend of mine crew (Marcus) was playing against another guy (Viks). He had used all his control cards (Hans) already and activated Marcus. He needed 2 things from Feral, proceeded to flip an ace for the cast, couldn't cheat so used a soulstone and proceeded to flip another ace. He needed a total of a 3 to cast the spell but somehow managed to get 2 of the 4 cards in the deck together to fail the spell. We still laugh about it.

[Hatchethead]

99% of the time, I likely won't cast Reanimator unless I have the card in hard or at the very least a middling crow I can soulstone with minimum risk, but Dreamer versus Nico isn't standard practice. Only casting Reanimator with a high crow is good advice more often than not, but conventional wisdom doesn't always apply to this match-up.

I can back that up with two whole games of experience, so bow down.

If my opponent moves his Daydreams and telegraphs a 21" leap frog companion activation, or maybe his crew composition tells me all I need to know (how many Alps?), Nico's turn 1 movement immediately becomes a secondary concern. I want Dreamer to burn max minion activations and cards in turn 2 completing his leap if he wants to drop in with max AP, so moving toward him is not ideal. I realize I've surrendered momentum and control to my opponent, but I've already come to terms with that; I did choose Nico versus the Dreamer, after all.

Nicodem will instead try his best to prep for Chompy's turn 2 arrival. This involves having close to 8ss in my pool (check), killing dogs (almost certainly), exhuming a corpse (maybe?), raising MZs (hopefully) and casting Reanimator three times if necessary, regardless of my hand, maybe burning one (and only one) soulstone if odds are good. If I end up with one additional combat-ready model, I consider it mission accomplished. Come turn two, the new guy's ready to rock with full AP. If not, well, at least I still have the MZs.

If I can pull this off, survive the initial attack, inflict some casualties and start a push toward my objective(s), going into turn 3 I'm feeling pretty sh-t hot.

If I'm not moving Nico turn 1, there's not much else to spend the AP on, really. I realize that AP and soulstones are the most precious resources we have and that this could be viewed as squandering both. I don't entirely disagree, but I've yet to come up with a better option turn 1 versus a super aggressive Dreamer (at least on paper). Even against a non-aggressive Dreamer, at least I feel confident pushing toward the center with MZ in tow and a growing entourage itching for a fight.

Maybe I'm way off base and this is the exact wrong way to deal with the scenario. I dunno. I need to jump in, try it and get my ass kicked ... then back to the drawing board, if necessary. Either way, this thread has been invaluable. Thanks (yet again) to everyone involved.

Oh, and Channeling Reanimator? Yeah, not the best move. I've never done it and now I never will. I probably would have tried it without really thinking it through. No damage flip, durr.

It should also be said that my opponent has never attempted the Alp bomb. He left the store with a clam shell following our second intro game. I expect his shiny new Alps will make an appearance next encounter. Only three. Maybe not a bomb (a grenade?), but still something to prepare for.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Hatchethead]

Changing gears completely:

What is your impression of a 4 dog list if my intention is NOT to kill them, but instead to use them (theoretically) as a single Bolstered 8ss model inflicting -2 Df (Hunting Dogs) and a potential buttload of (1) action charges (Bloodhound) + 1 additional attack, chaining them as a single activation using Mortimer (0) action? As long as there are two left, you've got a significant blob of potential Hard to Wound hurt. VERY vulnerable to pulses and blasts, but otherwise ...?

I can't help but feel that the Dreamer suffers in the face of target saturation.

[emissary]

Bloodhound won't work on nightmares as they're not living models.

[Hatchethead]

Bloodhound won't work on nightmares as they're not living models.

Hmm. Good point. My brain chose not to register that stipulation ...

[Hatchethead]

Just to continue on with my train of thought:

I started pondering the list I'd bring if I absolutely HAD to move up the field against Dreamer. I'd opt for something horde-ish, like a bunch of dogs, Necropunks and Mort. This is assuming no upfront counter generation, the dogs would not be sacrificial. Target saturation seems like the way to go against Dreamer, especially in a crew that can resurrect high value models at a reduced cost from a 2ss counter.

Dreamer is scary as heck, but he can only lay waste to one, maybe two targets at a time assuming I deploy and maintain proper spacing to stay out of his melee reach (two with a charge if he drops the first target with his Melee Expert AP, but I'd opt to cheat up and force a second attack before I let that happen uncontested). He doesn't have any spells except his Daydream summon, no damaging blasts or pulses, just those big, heavy mitts and his gaping maw.

Besides Mort (who's probably bringing up the rear), the only high value target on the table would be Nico himself, and he would be protected by the Grave Spirit, MZ, Hard to Wound 1 and Decay-healing. Keeping The Fog up would mean the Stitched and the Daydreams would have to get in close to gain LoS. Arise Mort's Exhumed counter, skip summoning entirely for the first turn, just plow down the field. Get a dog out front, Fresh Meat, drag the whole crew along for the ride.

ASIDE: I wish I could think of a way to get more use out of Mort. Exhume and Fresh Meat are great, but for 7ss I need more value. He's not a bad fighter with a 2" reach and Cb 6, trigger for Slow with a Ca 5 (need an 8+). Chompy would just dismantle his ass in melee, though. Not sure how I'd keep him alive anywhere near the front line.

I wouldn't be comfortable with a crew of elite models. Dreamer would pop in, nuke somebody and disappear, seriously reducing my ability to counter. With an MSU approach, Chompy has a lose/lose situation: Go in and attack the 12 wound Master with a full pool, Armor +2, the ability to redirect hits and heal himself or take a swat at a 2-3ss model and feel like you've accomplished ... what? Plus, I can retaliate, really get in there and start chipping away without feeling that I've overextended; have those dogs and Necropunks up close and personal, in the mix, sowing discord, dropping counters, etc. By mid-game my crew is becoming elite and hopefully I've done enough damage to derail the murder train.

Between Necropunks being Hard to Kill, Slow to Die, causing enemy models to be Slow, and Canines ganging up for the -2 Df with Hard to Kill and chained activation with Mortimer, all with Bolster (well, not Mort). Nico using 1 AP when necessary for a guaranteed Reanimator to keep the numbers up, the rest to drop Decay, Rigor or maybe Fog. Rigor would be huge, healing up the dogs and punks, damaging the enemy. I'd obviously prefer Bolster, but Arise would come into play should I lose several low point models in a single turn. I'd wait to maximize this as Bolster would otherwise be my life line.

Dog goes down, Punk Zombie stands up, Slice and Dice, Slice and Dice ...

This would require careful spacing within the 10" bubble of course. Not sure how it would pan out in 25ss. I can see it having merit in higher point games, where I can afford to bring a few Belles to drag targets in, or Jack Daw.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Q'iq'el]

A tricky way to deal with Alps would be to Slice and Dice them as Slow to Die action. It does enough damage to kill them, but the range is shorter than theirs. In other words, you need a trap.

1) Creative use of terrain may force the Dreamer to deploy his Alps within 2" of a Punk Zombie.

2) Even better, summon a Punk Zombie within 2" of the Alps. You can summon anywhere within 6" of the caster, so you can bring in a Vulture for that or use Nicodem directly, if they're nearby.

A summoned Punk Zombie will get X damage on the placement for receiving Slow. A big bomb will kill it outright. A small bomb will finish it off after it activates and if it doesn't - all the power to you (you can reposition for better coverage and then Slice and Dice or SnD twice).

The former solution is better, because it gives the opponent no time to react - you have the control over placement, you die, you Slice and Dice before they summon the new Alp, and if the conditions were right, you kill all the Alps in one go (gotta cheat that as high as possible though, to make sure). It may require some clever use of terrain, to make the opponent want to bunch up his Alps. If they are spread too far, you won't get all of them in one go and that makes the action somewhat pointless.

In the later case an experienced opponent may use his next activation to bury the Alps or he may walk away out of 2" range. If even one Alp survives within 4", it will summon another as soon as the Punk Zombie finishes its Slow to Die action. Granted, 2 is less than 3, but in such a case it is a bit of a waste of high cards to get just 1 of them.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Hatchethead]

Thanks Q. Good stuff. I'm all for more and better ways to deal with Alps.

I'm really liking Necropunks with Nico. I especially like them with Bête. 7" Leap w/ a 6+ mask allows them to jump out of the fog for a Flurry with Bolster. Hard to Kill means the enemy is often forced to devote 2 AP to killing them or risk Nico dropping a Decay for the heal. Arachnid gives them the edge in severe terrain situations when walking from fog cover into combat (more often than not). Overpower is situational but nice. Slow to Die for a bonus attack. Bête pops out, blows her AP (another Bolstered Flurry?) then sits around grinning, forcing an enemy model to waste yet another AP to kill her off, Slow to Die, One With the Night to do it all again. THEN Nico uses the corpse counter, summons a PZ or maybe a Flesh Construct (still gets his 2 AP thanks to his closing phase attack, yay Immune to Influence and two extra control cards).

One can (0) Zombie Companion a Necropunk with Mort, have him cast Fresh Meat and move only the Necropunks, moving them out of the fog, getting one in range for a follow-up Flurry and the rest to within Overpower range, ruining at least one enemy model's day.

Maybe a little dubious versus a gaggle of Alps ...

Edited August 19, 2011 by Hatchethead

[ravenborne]

So I got to play this match up last night.

A quick mini report (Im may have some of this out of order, but you get the gist):

The strategy was contain power (ugh). I went ahead and took Body Guard going all or nothing, and then Surrounded by Death (just to try something extremely hard).

My List:

Nicodem

Grave Spirit 1

6 dogs 12

Sebastian 6

Rotten Belle 4

Mortimer 7

8 ss

He has

Dreamer/Chompy

3 alps

Copelius

2 daydreams

Insidious madness

Teddy

His first turn Copelius makes an alp by wounding teddy, lots of stuff goes defensive stance and buries

My first turn Sebastian gets a BP counter, harvests 6 dogs, Mortimer exhumes, and Nicodem makes a Frankie and has 5 MZ. I have Sebastian about 10 inches away from Nicodem, who is hiding next to a terrain piece that allows hi to keep the MZ as far away from him and shield by the terrain as possible (I am worried about the alps).

Turn two, I go first and Nicodem makes another Frankie. In comes the bomb. He puts one alp and copelius near Sebastian and the Belle, the rest of the alps, madness and Teddy basically around Nicodem, and and Chompy near Mortimer and frankies (all trying to protect Nico).

Not in this order, but a summary:

The Madness is making everyone negative flips. Chompy beat face on Mort, putting him at about two wounds. Mortimer later ends up regenerating one, then taking two more from alps, runs off from terrifying and gets killed by a daydream. Teddy pounds on Nico and does a few wounds, I keep the MZs and use soulstones where needed. The frankies take a couple wounds from and don't bother pitching cards, and pound teddy but cant kill him. The belle gets slow, takes a couple wounds and walks out of alp range.

Copelius attacks Sebastian and manages to miss all attacks (lucky me). Don't remember how right now, but another alp was created and so there are two by sebastian. The alps did some wounds to him attacking, and when he activates he takes more and gets off an awesome Bloody Harvest that kills 2 alps and Copelius, who kills Sebastian with his four wound thing. I'll take it.

At the end of the turn, the MZs are near two alps and so activate and pass so they dont die. Also, Frankies get an attack which we determine does not activate the alps ability. They dont get a kill though.

Next turn Nico does arise again so they are all new MZ, and there are two more counters from Mort and sebastian. Chompy jumps in on him and pounds away, this time I use the MZs to stop 3 hits. Nico gets a Paralyze off on Chompy, who goes and buries for the turn, and makes a new Frankie. Belle lures an alp away towards her, and kills it (it's got -flip from the madness). Somewhere in this turn a Frankie dies and Teddy gets killed by Frankies. Alps keep doing wounds from attacks.

Towards the end I manage to kill off the last alps, but when Chompy finally comes back I am out of soul stones ad with the madness nearby, Nico runs off from terrifying.

Chompy then proceeds to rip up Nico who has negative flips.

A frankie kills off the madness and a belle one of the daydreams, another frankie I think tries to does some wounds on Chompy.

The game ends, I have no master left, Body guard is failed and not enough models for the last scheme.

But I was actually quite happy how effective the list was.

Looking back, I really like the Frankies but I can't help wondering if some PZ's doing the Slice and dice thing might have been better. They can go ahead and take a bunch of alp wounds, and being slow doesnt really matter.

I was also thinking that although Mort gave me a counter, he was pretty useless otherwise, except that he did draw Chompy on him. Im wondering if maybe Bette Noir and one less dog would have been better. She gets placed and so wont come in slow, and I get to place her so she wont die right off, and she might have been seriously effective at taking on Chompy, and keep on coming back.

Edited August 19, 2011 by ravenborne

[cerealkiller195]

nice game, though not sure about something. When you paralyzed chompy and he buried, when he comes back he should still have paralyzed on him. My reasoning is because I have heard of something with stitched together's creepy fog. Some trick that involves burying them so the effect doesn't go away since they are not around at the closing phase.. i may be wrong though so anyone that is up on the rules feel free to correct me.

i have the same thoughts about sebastian, sure he is handy in a fight but i'm not sure how much he exactly "brings to the game" when coupled with nicodem.

[Q'iq'el]

Paralyzed doesn't go away in Closing Phase anyway - it goes away when he forfeits next activation. So yes, he should stay Paralyzed.

Also with Flesh Constructs it is somewhat complex:

1) Immune to Influence doesn't protect you from Smother's Wp duel, does it? It is a simple duel, so you are not a defender.

2) It does protect you from Steal Breath though (Rst:Wp).

3) When you summon Flesh Construct, it receives Slow. If it's in the range of the Alps, that's damage right there.

4) When you activate, you have to discard a card, or you receive Slow. Normally Resurrectionists ignore it in the first activation after summoning, because they have Slow anyway. With Alps around, however, you can take another wave of damage, unless you prevent that Slow (because you get damaged for receiving Slow, each time you receive it). So you discard the card and remain Slow, unless it's a Joker and Fast cancels Slow on the model (and you have 2AP).

So, Alps cannot go in and Slow an FC in their own activation, but if you summon FC near Alps, you're in for a double-whammy... Triple-whammy even, if you lose the duel and fail to discard the card.

Last but not least Mort - he's there for the counters and for the movement. If you don't move, some of his utility goes away. Once Molly gets out, and brings Necrotic Machine to the equation, we'll be able to make him undead and benefit from Bolster undead and Decay healing. That'll make him a bit more of a tank.

[Hatchethead]

Hey ravenborne, cheers for the report. I don't have a lot of time, so no blow by blow comments from me, but I'm glad you posted this. It's good to get a feel for your Mort + Seb list in action.

Just a few random comments:

No Stitched in your opponent's crew. NICE. I mean, yeah, now you have to deal with Coppelius, but no Gamble woo!

So many Frankies. I see Flesh Constructs as a nice counter to Stitched in this match-up, with Insidious Madness re-countering the counter. He brought the Madness, but no Stitched to capitalize. You mentioned that maybe fewer Frankies and more PZ would have been better. I tend to agree. Would have left you with more MZ to defend against Chompy, too.

Only three Alps, but they still seemed to be a major headache. There is another thread discussing Drowned that makes me wonder if they might be something of an answer. If I understand correctly (I don't have Twisting Fates) they can move with pushes (?) and have a pulse attack that wouldn't count as a Strike, plus they're spirits to absorb direct attacks. They sound like custom-built Alp killers, but I could be way off base.

Other than that, tossing a PZ under the bus for a well placed Slow to Die SnD might be our best option.

Not being able to cheat a Morale duel sucks. Stupid Madness.

I think Frankies would have taken the wound for their closing phase strike. It's still a strike and the Alp's ability doesn't stipulate a phase.

Cereal is right: Chompy would have unburied with Paralyze still in place. That little nugget is a two way street!

7ss for Fresh Meat and Arise seems like a lot, yeah. I'm thinking of dropping him and trying Bête in a target saturation list:

Nicodem @ 25ss

9ss Bête Noire

3ss Necropunk

3ss Necropunk

3ss Necropunk

2ss Canine Remains

2ss Canine Remains

1ss Grave Spirit

Pool: 5ss

No turn 1 counter generation. I try to squeeze as much combat potential as I can from the minions before they die and provide counters. No MZs makes me cringe, though.

Probably suicide, but I'd like to give it a shot as a mobile force versus Dreamer. Meh, it might be good for a larf but I'd honestly prefer Mort for the 7ss pool, Fresh Meat and extra counters. Might toss her in at 35ss for an 8ss pool and the threat of Bête.

Nico likely wouldn't be able to keep up without Fresh Meat, the dogs and punks would outrun the bubble. Mort is looking like a necessary evil.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Hatchethead

[cerealkiller195]

@Q'iq'el yes your right it just slipped my mind, i meant to say that he should of stayed paralyzed when he came out of the being buried, it would of given Hatchethead another round with Nicodem.

[ravenborne]

I skipped a bit, sorry, Chompy did stay paralyzed and just hid for a turn.

The Frankies took all kinds of wounds from Slow and striking. Its rude. I thik sometimes I pitched a card, sometimes not. But checking it definitely says "receives slow" on the card though. So you have to pick between a card and a wound. But they can suck them up, and since we were playing it that the alp card says "Strike Action" and no actual action was being used, the Ceasless advance "strike" didnt cause a wound.

I should also mention how useful grave spirit's buff was till he died to alp silliness.

[ravenborne]

BTW, the three alps became four first turn, and one more was added somewhere along the way.

[Hatchethead]

One of the first tidbits of advice I was given when I created this thread was, "Kill the Daydreams". It seems to me that Alps become #1 priority as soon as they make an appearance. Kill 'em all, kill 'em quick.

[Hatchethead]

So I've got two Nico @ 25ss lists I intend to run in the near future.

Defensive Counter

7ss Mortimer

4ss Crooked Man

4ss Rotten Belle

2ss Canine Remains

2ss Canine Remains

1ss Grave Spirit

Pool: 8ss

Front load a few counters w/ dead dogs, stall out in deployment zone, force the Dreamer to burn max cards and activations to drop the bomb or at least make him reconsider his heedless advance, swell the ranks with PZs and/or Flesh Constructs. Turn 1 Arise and prep for a turn 2 Bolster, keep a few MZs around for piece of mind. Try to pull enemy models into position with the Belle, drop as much Decay and Cave In on the enemy crew as possible, pulverize the Alps and Daydreams.

If the Dreamer appears to ignore my crew and instead goes on a land grab, stick to the plan but advance where possible, using Fresh Meat and spare AP to push down field. Stay within 10" but max spread therein.

Target Saturation/Blitz

7ss Mortimer

3ss Necropunk

3ss Necropunk

3ss Necropunk

2ss Canines

2ss Canines

1ss Grave Spirit

Pool: 7ss

Why kill my own minions when the Alps will do it for me? No harvesting counters, all minions fight until they die. Reliant on Exhume for MZ (at first). Come out full tilt, cover as much ground as possible. Turn 1 melee? Probably. Keep minions up front (not Mort) and Nico/Mort in back. If Chompy attacks a minion, who cares? If he attacks Nico, he's leaping my crew and leaving at least one Daydream exposed, and he's hoping to put a dent in my ss pool at best. Use Fog + Bolster + Leap and/or Fresh Meat to get Necropunks into combat with AP. Counters should fall in melee with enemy minions, allowing Nico to summon PZs in amidst the Dreamer's crew, hopefully turning the entire thing into a buzzsaw. This crew starts horde-ish and becomes elite if all goes well ... which it probably won't ... but it'll be fun to try.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Hookers]

and gets killed by a daydream

so sad... I think I cried a little

If you were to play the people I play, you would be faced with a turn two onslaught of chompy, defensive stance alp bomb, copelius and other nasties all trying to kill your master and heavy hitters.

Read: the master of malifaux

I think the best players in our local meta agree that actually Nico is the best choice rezzers have for the dreamer, and its mainly because of killing your own models to have MZ on turn one. Also paralyze is crucial.

I don't have any specific tactics to add, but will say that I agree with a good bit of the advice raven has presented.