Fickle gamers: Brand loyalty in the world of toy soldiers.

[Chucklemonkey]

Back in the mists of time I played nothing but GW games - at the time I was ignorant of the fact that other games existed.

I am not looking to start a merits of GW debate, but with their recent much publicised business decisions I think it is hard to argue that some previously staunchly loyal GW gamers have started to pick up crews/gangs armies for other games systems. In my experience I have noticed that a lot of these players become fickle gamers that then bounce from system to system the moment the new game company makes any kind of decision that they don't agree with.

Just wondering if anyone else has noted the same thing or whether it is perhaps all in my head?

What makes you stick with a game? What would make you throw your hands in the air and say 'that's it, i'm done here'?

Edit: And I don't mean that people play a variety of games, I'm pretty sure most of us do that.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Chucklemonkey

[thescale]

For me, no matter how cool a game is you can't play if no one else is playing.

Luckily for us, Malifaux seems to be growing pretty rapidly in popularity, so that shouldn't be an issue for too much longer.

[Dolomyte]

I try to run all the systems simultaineously, but usually one or two get dropped out of the fold. Currently I'm into Malifaux and GW Fantasy. Privateer and 40k were the last cycle.

I will jump back to a new system, or an old one, if exceptional models are released. for instance, I really am thinking about picking up dark eldar, because they are flat out beautiful models.

Edit - Need people to play against as well.

[Necromorph]

Well...I hate when a company releases something broken, and then refuses to fix it until much later down the road, usually through some roundabout way of adding more models to "counter" the broken thing so you have to spend more $.

There are other things I dislike...but I'm tired...I'll come back to it, lol.

[emissary]

For me it's a matter of what's fun. Fantasy, Infinity and Malifaux are fun for me. 40k and PP are not. We are lucky to have a variety of stuff at our store so I can choose. GW is definately the most popular. I don't get why people won't try something because it isn't GW or PP myself.

[Chucklemonkey]

I don't get why people won't try something because it isn't GW or PP myself.

I agree, there are certainly fanboys around who end up so entrenched in their home system that everything else is just a terrible game whether they have actually tried it or not.

I don't mind saying I have never and probably will never play Flames of War as it doesn't appeal to me, but I won't go around bad-mouthing it for pretty much that very reason.

[dsmiles]

Well, I started with 40k and left because you really can't get a decent tournament-winning army at a reasonable price. I also found the fluff dull for the existing factions/sub-factions, and non-existent if you wanted to play a sub-faction that wans't "primary" to the fluff writers. (I tried to play the Tau N'Dras sept, and there was no fluff to support it at all, even though it was mentioned in the codex. Barely, but it was mentioned.)

I moved to WarmaHordes, and still play it, whenever I can. It's a little pricey, but a winning army is far more reasonably priced than a WHFB/40k winning army. I love the fluff, and am eagerly anticipating the next Iron Kingdoms RPG.

I recently got into Malifaux, and absolutely LOVE the fluff. I love the pricing. And it's...different...from the other tabletop miniature games. It's great, and am eagerly awaiting the announcement of a Malifaux RPG. (If the developers need any help, I'll work solely for the opportunity to playtest it. Not that I'm shamelessly advertising my ability to work for free, or anything...)

For me, it boils down to fluff and price. If I don't enjoy the fluff, I'm out. If I can't afford to build a tournament-winning army for a reasonable price, I'm out.

[Sholto]

I don't see why gamers should be 'loyal' at all. I think it does more harm than good in the long run. "My games company, right or wrong" doesn't help quality control in the least. I know one 40k gamer who has this exact, ferocious devotion to GW, but for the life of me I cannot understand why.

What the OP describes as a 'fickle gamer' could easily describe me. For a few years I played 40k exclusively (so much so that, when I won Bloodbowl in a raffle, I gave it unopened to a charity shop). I didn't love GW, I was just gamer-incurious. Only when I discovered Malifaux did I start branching out and, from there, tried all sorts of other games such as Dark Age, Infinity and now onto various board games.

I don't think I am fickle in my behaviour, however. I think I am much more discerning about what I want from a game, now, and what I expect from games companies. If I get it from them, I will play those games. If not, I will keep looking elsewhere (or just make it myself!).

The caveat to all of this, as others have mentioned, is getting other people to play the games you like.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Sholto

[Koschai]

Your describing me...

However I would argue at the term fickle or any suggestion that it's a bad thing. Simply put GW are the Coca Cola of the gaming industry and a lot of people drink/play nothing else. This is partly due to a lack of information and partly due to a lockdown on where you can play games (GW stores are GW only and a lot of local stores and communities are GW centric). This is also due in part to GW pushing larger and larger armies at higher and higher prices meaning you have no income left to look at other investments.

However the growing strain on the customer base of GW's corporate attitude, the growth of instant media allowing disgruntled players the opportunity to impact satisfied players, growing prices paired with a slumping economy and a rapidy increasing number of models requirement to maintain a competitive edge have started to squeeze many players out of the GW commercial grip.

These customers are finding themselves suddenly free from the GW shadow and able to buy into smaller skirmish games. When you can buy an army for the price of a unit you are able to buy many armies for many systems.

Its not a case of being fickle but being able to branch out and breath freely. Its the same drive that early colonists in America had, moving from an overcrowded Europe to the freedom of a vast American continent that pushed them to spread across the new world despite the inherent dangers.

Having broken from one system and started to experience a wide array of alternatives, that freedom also becomes empowering and these same players are far less likely to accept issues such as poor rules, poor models or shoddy products.

All of this in my view is extremely positive and can only help to make the miniature wargaming hobby as a whole better.

The King is dead, long live the anarchy!

[Chucklemonkey]

I perhaps did not explain myself properly and for that I apologise. My little edit was insufficient.

I too play numerous games and am looking to branch into others. I am definitely seeing a number of gamers in my area though who having become dis-illusioned with GW become almost militant to any business decision they disagree with from the new systems they explore and was wondering if others had noticed the same thing.

I think there is a difference between that and being a discerning gamer.

Also, I was looking to determine what draws people to, and pushes them away, from a particular game.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Chucklemonkey

[Sholto]

I am definitely seeing a number of gamers in my area though who having become dis-illusioned with GW become almost militant to any business decision they disagree with from the new systems they explore and was wondering if others had noticed the same thing.

Can't say I know any of these people. Perhaps years of their complaints falling on the deaf ears of the GW giant have taken their toll, and these newly-empowered gamers realise that these much smaller games companies have to listen to their players in order to survive. Fruitless griping that garnered no response is a thing of the past when games company owners have forums that they frequent on a regular basis, and these gamers are simply enjoying their ability to have their voices heard. And, having been gamers for a long time, they have strong opinions on how things Ought To Be.

[emissary]

Following up, I can understand if you're totally happy in your current game, don't want to spend any more money or just don't like the models when it comes to something new. However, when I see people complaining about their current game and running off to buy the newest thing in that game in the vain attempt to rectify the situation while having an absolute refusal to try anything else that's what I don't get.

As for GW, I guess I feel they are what they are. I haven't felt slighted by them in awhile. The WFB stuff is flawed but fun. Their games are becoming simpler though. The fluff, especially for 40k, has really dropped off.

PP fanboism is what I really don't understand. I've had a lot of interaction with them over the years and the way they just crap all over their players just is beyond me, especially with how dedicated their fanbase is.

[nilus]

I try to run all the systems simultaineously, but usually one or two get dropped out of the fold. Currently I'm into Malifaux and GW Fantasy. Privateer and 40k were the last cycle.

I'd play that many games too if I didn't need to eat . Also my wife would divorce me.

I think its comes down to where people are in there lives. I'm married with a young child. I only got the time and money for one game. So I choose a skirmish game since it means less to paint and less to buy(or in my case I can own a lot more crews).

Honestly what keeps me into a game is less the game and more the people who play it. Malifaux seems to cater to the type of people I want to hang out with. On average I would say our players are older, many are married, some are female(more so then in any other mini game I have seen), almost all have a quirkier sense of humor and seldom do I see any truly hardcore wargame types. I'm not saying Malifaux players are not competive but I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain about a rule in Malifaux and try to use real life physics to justify why its wrong(Something I heard way to often when I played other games)

[Dolomyte]

I'd play that many games too if I didn't need to eat . Also my wife would divorce me.

I think its comes down to where people are in there lives. I'm married with a young child. I only got the time and money for one game. So I choose a skirmish game since it means less to paint and less to buy(or in my case I can own a lot more crews).

Honestly what keeps me into a game is less the game and more the people who play it. Malifaux seems to cater to the type of people I want to hang out with. On average I would say our players are older, many are married, some are female(more so then in any other mini game I have seen), almost all have a quirkier sense of humor and seldom do I see any truly hardcore wargame types. I'm not saying Malifaux players are not competive but I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain about a rule in Malifaux and try to use real life physics to justify why its wrong(Something I heard way to often when I played other games)

See. you made the mistake and got married =p. My dad always said why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

Seriously though, being unemployed I have had to tone it down quite a bit, and malifaux is amazing for the gamer on a budget. when I eventually find a new job, stay there long enough to build a decent 401k and retire, (which in america will be long after I die from a heart attack), my dream is to have an army for every game system out there. this way I can go to any LGS around the country and find a game of something. I believe diversity is my key to happiness.

[emissary]

See. you made the mistake and got married =p.

Or marry one like I did that can stay home with the kids and still pull in close to 6 figures a year.

my dream is to have an army for every game system out there. this way I can go to any LGS around the country and find a game of something. I believe diversity is my key to happiness.

Agreed with this. The only game system where I have more then one army is Malifaux. Helps out the budget quite a bit.

[Koschai]

I perhaps did not explain myself properly and for that I apologise. My little edit was insufficient.

Not at all, though I may have misphrased my emphasis. I agree with most of the points made here and the general tone of the thread. I too have limited resources and this is why when I played GW it filled my entire horizon, now I play smaller games I can see clearly and I am capable of jumping game to game.

I find this keeps everything fresh. Burn out, so often used to describe 40k is such a horrific concept. Its basically saying that you do not enjoy a game anymore but cannot play anything else. What kind of self inflicted hell is this? Is playing 40k or WFB a job now? A job you pay to do! People struggle against burn out... why? Why not do something else?

With smaller scaled skirmish games your just having fun. The game is less investment oriented so you can afford to dabble and move on, or hang out and keep changing things up with new crews, or new combinations. And if you feel like jumping into something different it's all good. What draws people in then tends to be where your friends are headed and the mood of the local zeitgeist or scene. What drives people away will be boredom, or something becoming unbalanced enough that it kills the fun and the players, a trickle turning its a river flow away to a new game.

This is actually how things should be. What GW has become is what Joseph Campbell has called Holdfast the Tyrant. Privateer Press is something of a sucessor and despite the fanboys out there they are really just GW junior. Thier not as bad right now but they are headed squarly in that direction and if you look at GW 10 years ago...

Not that being sucessful is really all that bad, however in an interview with Wierd Sketch I heard him say that Henchmen were encouraged not to attack non Wyrd games, simply be positive about Malifaux (I'd so be a Henchmen if there weren't already at least 2 operating out of my local store! I carry the flag unofficially where I can though as the game makes me happy). I really dont see that attitude coming from the "giants" in the playground.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Koschai

[Jadin]

This thread really hits home for me. The gaming community here in a rural part of the US(Vermont) is fickle and stubborn at the same time. GW is the big giant company in the pond, and at a time all that got played here was 40k. I've never been a massive fan of that universe, so it really didn't interest me. I had 2 fantasy armies, but no opponents.

Due to this, I turned to computer games for my entertainment and I got hung up with games like WoW, and Counter Strike, and Everquest before them. My Empire and High Elf armies were ebayed off. However, once I finished college I moved back into the miniatures scene. I went to the LGS looking for fantasy players and there were none. I was introduced to Warmachine at the LGS and the owner said there was a small player base, but the game is growing in popularity. A few of the other Warmachine players were also 40k players, and that was their first passion, so they tried to get me into it, but nothing really has held my interest there.(Though I bought IG, Orks, Eldar, and recently Dark Eldar).

A small splinter group of miniature enthusiasts broke out of that group and decided to try other games like Pulp-City, Helldorado, Infinity, Uncharted Seas, and even Malifaux. It wasn't so much being fickle as it was exploring fun new games. Though that got quickly out of control due to the amount of money we were investing, and we could barely remember all the different rules from game to game. The group eventually dispersed though as people moved away due to the rough economy and went else where. Now there are 2-3 of us left, and we rarely get together anymore due to work and family conflicts. Before they left it was a once a week get together, but now we are lucky if we get together once a month plus time at the LGS which is an hour away from where I live.

I quickly found myself with the following sitting on the shelf:

Warhammer Fantasy Dark Elves and Empire, 40k Dark Eldar,

Uncharted Seas Shroud Mages, Warmachine Mercenaries, Hordes Trolls(my wife's army), Helldorado Westerners, Pulp City Villains, Infinity Ariadna, Firestorm Armada and 4 Malifaux factions(Guild, Rezzers, Arcanists, Outcasts).

Now that I have a son, I realize that these 600+ miniatures will never be able to be painted by my hands, so I had to make the hard decision to reduce down to 3 games. The games I chose are Warhammer Fantasy(just keeping my Dark Elves), Infinity(Ariadna), and all of my Malifaux. I figure over the next 2 to 3 years I can get the 150 or so miniatures I don't have painted yet finished. Luckily my Dark Elves are fully painted.(Except for the new storm of magic dragon I bought).

I do feel like I am betraying my friends by getting rid of Heldorado and 40k, each of their favorite games, but I told them if they want me to play, provide me an army, which they can since they collect more than one faction.

I don't think fickleness is a part of a gamers decision to bounce from game to game. I think it's more mentally like video games. A lot of video games I beat, I don't revisit down the road, nor do I watch the same movie over and over again unless it's really good and then that gets old after awhile. People are looking for the next new thing.

[Dolomyte]

I don't think fickleness is a part of a gamers decision to bounce from game to game. I think it's more mentally like video games. A lot of video games I beat, I don't revisit down the road, nor do I watch the same movie over and over again unless it's really good and then that gets old after awhile. People are looking for the next new thing.

the video games thing made me laugh, as I am currently playing final fantasy 8 for the 7th or 8th time.

[Jadin]

I played Mass Effect through 6 times myself, but I find those are exceptions.

I certainly didn't play Dawn of War or Warcraft 3 more than once.

[Koschai]

I really dont have anything I want to get rid of...

Malifaux (5 Masters plus 2 Henchmen - Game of Choice)

40k (10k CSM: Death Guard with a further 3k of Red Corsair allies)

Uncharted Seas (3 Fleets each at over 1k each)

Firestorm Armada (1 fleet, really only in it for others but...)

Blood Bowl (one team, was a gift)

Warmachine (Small force, not yet played, still hoping to get some games in)

And I'm in the process of buying into Dark Age Apocalypse.

I am eyeing 3 more Malifaux masters though so may end up downsizing my GW stock further and selling the Red Corsairs leaving me with just the one army (though its 10k points of painted models).

[G. Footman]

For me, no matter how cool a game is you can't play if no one else is playing.

Luckily for us, Malifaux seems to be growing pretty rapidly in popularity, so that shouldn't be an issue for too much longer.

my feelings too, there's a couple game sout there that look cool and I'd like to get into, but noone around me plays

[CannibalBob]

I played Mass Effect through 6 times myself, but I find those are exceptions.

I certainly didn't play Dawn of War or Warcraft 3 more than once.

Thats funny, I am the exact opposite. While I very much enjoyed Mass Effect, and the sequel - I only played them once. However, I have played Dawn of War 1&2, and Warcraft 3 many many times.

Part of that is that I really like strategy games (both turn based and real-time). Another part is that I found the game-play of the Mass Effect games fun, but not fun to the point where I wanted to do it a lot. For the most part the draw of those games is the story, and while it does change if you play your character different, it does not change too far from the main plot points. For the most part I already know what is going to happen. I may go back eventually and play through it in a different way.

I am looking forward to the 3rd game though. Hopefully they don't do to it what they did to the Dragon Age sequel - that game was a big bucket of awful.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I've never played any GW game aside from it's estranged ginger son bloodbowl, but was after I started Malifaux and Hoards. My wargaming started with legion of everblight, but due to money issues I could only play Malifaux or hoards and Malifaux won

[dafruk]

I first and foremost am a warhammer fantasy player. Mass combat games of non skirmish armies have the biggest appeal to me and of those Ive heard of WFB is the one I can get a game of virtually any week of the year. I've currently got 4 fully painted 8th ed armies and am working on more, ultimately I'd like to have all 15.

But I also like to play different games. I've got a couple of 40k armies, a fully painted company of marines and a virtually unpainted eldar army. I also have most necromunda gangs, a couple of bloodbowl teams and an epic army.

Then outside of GW I've played uncharted seas and the space one. I've also got some infinity figs but I really only got them as they looked cool.

Finally I'd say my other game is now going to be malifaux, h&wm is quite popular at my local club but it isn't skirmish and isn't mass battle, the mid game size whilst being individual models doesn't really work for me (also why I generally find 50k dull). Malifaux uses a small model count and focuses on objectives and strategies to make the games fun and gives a lot more variety to the gaming experience, plus not being dice based mechanic is refreshing.

But ultimately it depends on uptake, if I can't get regualr games then it's likely to fade away as anima tactics did in my area.

[szma76]

So I think I am atypical for a miniatures camera, I have no 40k origin story. I started with board games and got into mini's only a couple year ago. I have the d6g to thank for getting me here. For those that listen Russ's jedi mind tricks worked and I got into wm. Since I was the first in I had to get two factions to get my friends in and we have about 4 or 5 who play.

After wm the mind tricks worked for malifaux and I got another couple of factions to get the guys into the "new hotness." This worked even better as there are about 7 or 8 players who like malifaux.

We have also tried dystopian wars and that has only been received ok.

All of this leads me to my point. Most of us find malifaux the funniest game of those we have tried. That is what keeps us playing. That is what keeps the mania alive. Wm is slowly dropping in popularity, dystooian wars is all but out. Malifaux is growing and growing. We are adding new players fairly regularly.

We don't have a lot of former 40k in our group so the fickleness isn't something I have directly observed, but we are selective with what we play and analyze what we like and don't about it. In the end if it becomes no fun I am sure we will move on.