Malifaux rules as a continuing product

[Buhallin]

Ah no, that's the wrong way around. They chose the PDF rulebook because it was more profitable to them. At first they were going to release it in print but came to the conclusion that the overhead for rulebooks is too much for a small minis company.

My point was pretty much what Nathan just said - it's a lot of effort to maintain something like a living rulebook that's as up-to-date as we want, especially for a small company.

Is it possible to do? Certainly... But when your example of a company who did so went out of business, I'm not sure it comes across quite the way you want I'm not saying that the online PDF killed them (and certainly don't want to turn it into a post-mortem of what did, that's very off-topic here) but you have to look at a failed company's actions with caution if you're suggesting emulating them.

@Lalo: I don't disagree with any of that. In a lot of ways, it's very much a no-win situation that will be problematic for someone. A huge, pretty, full-color compendium book sounds awesome - but you stick them in a rough position. You're talking about a lot of time and effort to create a product that will either only appeal to a portion of players or annoy a lot of the current players by forcing them to buy a book that's only 10% new. It's also something that's a short-term bandaid - sure, they can do it, but are they going to do one every year? Every third year? There really isn't a perfect answer.

And I also agree about the complexity. This is what killed Warmachine for me, more than anything else. But I don't know that we've really seen it yet. Rising Powers was certainly more complex, but I think that's to be expected as they're still finding the nooks and crannies of the system and what they can do with it. I'll give them another book or two to see what the trajectory does before I start freaking out over this.

[Math Mathonwy]

Here is a query for you - how many games with just online rule books do you find in your local game store? There are some out there, but not many. Retailers don't like non tangible product, they want it in the store on the shelves, and if your local gaming stores and communities won't support the game, you normally won't find it being played too heavily unless its amongst a club or hardcore group of players.

And the cost of a book, while not cheap for printing, primarily is all in the design, art, etc - if you've gone that far, you either have confidence in your product or you don't when it comes time for print and sale.

Well, they did print it in French, translate it and then come to the conclusion that printing it in English wasn't profitable.

Me and my extended gaming group play Helldorado, Malifaux, Alkemy, Uncharted Seas, Blood Bowl and so on and so forth - none of these have rulebooks in the local gameshop. So I come from a bit of a different perspective

But that's beside the point, really. I didn't take this thread's starting post as a serious possibility so I decided to add to the conversation by providing another different take on things. I did not mean it as a serious suggestion for you in your particular situation. Should've probably been clearer about that, my apologies.

Also, I'm 100% sure that you are way more knowledgeable about these things than I and surely correct about what is good for you guys. I have complete respect for you. I'm wasn't actually trying to suggest that a living PDF would be the right path to take for you and when you say that it isn't the right path, I certainly believe you. Just that some had tried it and it sounded like the right decision for them in their particular situation and it was very nice from my POV.

Who knows, maybe the time is right someday when eReaders are utterly ubiquitous and more advanced. But right now I naturally wish Wyrd to succeed as well as possible and I trust your opinion on the matter a helluva lot more than mine

My point was pretty much what Nathan just said - it's a lot of effort to maintain something like a living rulebook that's as up-to-date as we want, especially for a small company.

Is it possible to do? Certainly... But when your example of a company who did so went out of business, I'm not sure it comes across quite the way you want I'm not saying that the online PDF killed them (and certainly don't want to turn it into a post-mortem of what did, that's very off-topic here) but you have to look at a failed company's actions with caution if you're suggesting emulating them.

Eh, that sounds kinda disingenuous. Kinda "it surely wasn't the PDF that brought them down but you know *nudge nudge wink wink*". Now, maybe you honestly didn't mean it that way but that's how it reads.

Seriously, it was a different situation than what Wyrd is in and in that situation I believe it was the right choice and it was an interesting precedent. I'm pretty convinced that they would've gone belly-up faster had they printed it.

[CannibalBob]

It's a stretch to call the books "obsolete". I would agree that the initial book probably is, but one rule change on one model - or even a few rule changes over a few models - does not make the books obsolete.

I was mainly referring to the first book. And it is in no way a stretch to call that book obsolete. There is only a handful of models in that book that do not have rule changes. Unless I am mistaken, I believe there were some errata/changes to the core rules in the rules manual as well. The only thing that the first book still functions for is the background and fluff - which it does very well.

If at some point they decided to go and dump a huge errata on the Rising Powers book (who knows - it could possibly happen) then that book would pretty much be rendered obsolete as well. It would no longer work to provide you with the rules for the various models as most of them would have changed.

If Wyrd wants to continue to sell the various books then eventually they will need to have an additional print-run from their book supplier. In that case it should not be very difficult for them to send an updated pdf (or whatever format they send to the printing company) for the next run.

Sure, that would mean that there would be different versions floating around, but the alternative is to keep everyone on the same footing with a book where the contents are no longer current to the game - which is poor.

If I bought a book for the rules, and found out that the majority of the rules were no longer current and I needed a whole lot of online updates then I would probably immediately return the book to the store. I would then look to see if there was an updated version of the book I could buy. If there was not, and the updates were all just online, then I would not purchase a book at all and I would just get the online stuff. However, I know a lot of people that would just drop the game right there. Regardless, the company would have lost the sale of the book - which is not a good thing for them.

If they are going to continue to sell a product, then I personally think they should strive to make sure it is current and a good product for their game. A book full of invalid model entries is no longer a good product for a miniature game.

But even then, in the original context... Maybe? I do software interface design for a living, and if there's one thing I've discovered over the years, "consistent" trumps "good" far more often than any of us might wish.

I am not really sure what you mean by consistent compared to good in this context. But I don't think a set of rules for a miniature game and a software UI are really very comparable things. I understand your point in regards to software, as I am a software engineer, but it does not really seem a good analogy in this context.

In my opinion, heavily changing the rules in a book is something like heavily changing an interpreter and/or library without retaining backwards compatibility. What happens then is you obsolete all code people have that uses that interpreter or library. That can be very annoying.

If by consistent, you mean that every printed copy of a book is identical, and none of the changes or errata are ever rolled into newer printings, then that seems like it would never be the best option. If that was the case then you would simply know to never buy an old book for Malifaux unless all you wanted was the stories. The rules would never again be current, and that book would not be overly useful in regards to playing a game of Malifaux.

But, if they did periodically update the printings, you would know that you could get an up-to-date version. It might not be on the shelf in a game store, but at worst you would know you could get a current version direct from Wyrd. That is not the greatest option either, since it would leave older books in retail circulation - but at least current versions would be available somewhere.

But all I really want is a nice convenient way to get updated cards other than through mail-order or printing a pdf.

[CannibalBob]

Faction decks are nice and all, but they still have rules for only one faction. And unless you're using them, it's unlikely you will use them for reference material during a game. (in other words, I don't want to carry around every card in existence to check on my opponent's stats without taking the card out of his hand). Finally, having all the model stats in one book gives a hidden benefit: it encourages players to sit down and read them. Peruse them, look at what the interactions are. They start to say, "Hey, if I use this with this it's awesome!" That doesn't necessarily happen with faction decks, because odds are you won't buy the faction deck unless you already have a good portion of the models.

I agree with your point about faction decks not being a replacement for books. I want faction decks not so that new players can get all the rules for various models, but rather so that existing players can get current version of the cards for their models. Theoretically new players will get the new version of the cards when they purchase their stuff, although that is not always the case as product can sit on the shelf at a retailer for a while.

A periodically issued card deck would be a convenient, and somewhat inexpensive (at least for the consumers), way to distribute updated cards to existing players.

Edited July 16, 2011 by CannibalBob

[Justin]

@Lalo: I don't disagree with any of that. In a lot of ways, it's very much a no-win situation that will be problematic for someone. A huge, pretty, full-color compendium book sounds awesome - but you stick them in a rough position. You're talking about a lot of time and effort to create a product that will either only appeal to a portion of players or annoy a lot of the current players by forcing them to buy a book that's only 10% new. It's also something that's a short-term bandaid - sure, they can do it, but are they going to do one every year? Every third year? There really isn't a perfect answer.

And I also agree about the complexity. This is what killed Warmachine for me, more than anything else. But I don't know that we've really seen it yet. Rising Powers was certainly more complex, but I think that's to be expected as they're still finding the nooks and crannies of the system and what they can do with it. I'll give them another book or two to see what the trajectory does before I start freaking out over this.

Yeah, I agree, there is no good "absolute" solution to the problem. However, if the new book had the rules as they were written in the rules manual, simply compressed in there with model stats, basic fluff background, and some basic modeling/painting, you have a fantastic beginner's guide without forcing any old player to buy it. Because if you have the RM, you know the fluff, you're playing Malifaux so you clearly got model rules somewhere...you absolutely don't need to buy it. No reason to get annoyed. Granted, some people will, but it's simply not a valid argument. And the moderate annoyance of a few veterans who are looking at things a bit odd is more than worth the sheer convenience to new players, who simply don't speak up as much. (and why would they? they have no investment in the game. if it's too inconvenient, they're not new players at all, they walk on by).

But, in the end, the veterans will buy it, even though they don't need to. It's new, it's nice, there's cool art, everything's in one place. It will sell, even to existing customer's who don't "need" it.

Although I agree, it's not a perfect solution, because more models will keep coming out after it is released. Just a means of staying afloat. But better stay afloat than sink. A game is a living thing, Wyrd will never be able to come out with one last book and just say, "Ah, there, perfect. Done." So, without that, bandaids are necessary. It's what the RM was, and it worked very well.

[Buhallin]

I was mainly referring to the first book. And it is in no way a stretch to call that book obsolete.

That would be why I said "with the exception of the first book", which even Nathan acknowledged is outdated.

If by consistent, you mean that every printed copy of a book is identical, and none of the changes or errata are ever rolled into newer printings, then that seems like it would never be the best option. If that was the case then you would simply know to never buy an old book for Malifaux unless all you wanted was the stories. The rules would never again be current, and that book would not be overly useful in regards to playing a game of Malifaux.

This isn't just an academic discussion - I've dealt with it.

Spartan Games has frequently updated their books during reprints. It sounds like it would be awesome, but it's really rather annoying. When you're discussing rules you've got page numbers that don't match up, examples that exist in one book but not the other (or, worse, exist in both but are different).

Having to composite a base set of rules plus an online errata is much, much easier to deal with in comparison. You also introduce the annoyance of people having to buy a new book to fix it, which a lot of people don't want to do.

The same consistency problem is introduced with Lalo's uber-book idea. You either update rules and make meaningful changes, in which case everyone is upset at having to buy the new book, or you don't - in which case you've just spent a ton of time and effort on a book that a lot of your customers won't buy, and created a "Page X of which book again?" problem. This is, again, something that has been done - Flames of War has a mini-rulebook with most of the rules, but they're all on different pages. It's a hassle.

Honestly, I'd love to see everything you're suggesting, and Lalo is suggesting. But I don't think it's realistic from a cost or effort issue to expect Wyrd, or any company, to do this.

[CannibalBob]

Honestly, I'd love to see everything you're suggesting, and Lalo is suggesting. But I don't think it's realistic from a cost or effort issue to expect Wyrd, or any company, to do this.

My point was that it should pretty much cost almost nothing to send an updated file for a book to the printing company when you request a new print run. These books are all compiled digitally. If you look, the Malifaux book is printed somewhere in asia, so I am pretty sure they are just emailing the file to their supplier. It should not cost anything to email a newer version when they request a new print run.

I guess you could say that it would cost them something to update the file. But it looks like they are already doing that with the online pdfs. It should not really cost them much to roll those changes into the file they send to the printer.

It might not be the best solution altogether, but I think it is certainly better than just having a bunch of outdated books and expecting everyone to go to the internet. I have found that most gamers don't really bother.

I have seen the same thing you are talking about. I have played miniature games for over 2 decades now and have seen how plenty of different companies do things. I also play the Spartan Games, and have dealt with the various printings they have. It is not that big a deal I have found. The books all have the date of printing in them, and you should have a date attached to any errata you print.

The opposite issue you run into is that as mentioned earlier you need something on the shelf for retailers. It can be hard to get people into a game where playing requires reams of printed FAQ and errata carried with you. Most people do not want to go online to look for that stuff, and they certainly don't want to cart it around with them and deal with it in a game.

The small rules manual was a great idea. Not only is it portable, but it is well put together, very concise with its explanations, and has a superb index and reference. It is also stupid cheap. If they need to make an update to the core rules at some point I would hope that they would update the small rules manual. If they did, I would happily buy another one rather than cart a bunch of printed FAQ around with me. Fifteen bucks for a more up to date set of rules won't break my bank. By the same token, I would like a convenient way to update my model rules.

In my experience in table-top gaming, consistency is nowhere near as nice as convenience. I will pay extra money for things that make it more convenient to play. And I will also play a game more often if it is convenient to do so - which in turn keeps me buying stuff for said game.

I love that Wyrd sells the small rules manual individually. GW made small rules manuals for their games, but then makes it a pain to purchase them. I will buy the big book for home reference, but I don't want to cart a giant tome with me to play a game. Not being able to buy those books outside of an expensive box set which most likely I only want 50% or none of the minis is simply annoying. Privateer Press is making a condensed rule book as well, and they are also not selling it outside of an expensive box. If a condensed rules set is available by itself I will happily purchase it. And I would also be happy to replace it periodically as rules evolve.

Using cards to track stats, damage, effects, etc makes things very convenient. I love that about the Privateer Press games. Privateer had a good idea in making replacement cards easy to acquire when they changed the rules. Sadly they don't ever seem to do any significant errata to models - so there is no need for update cards after a rules revision.

One thing I wish Wyrd would do is redesign their cards. I like that they have all the rules on them for a model - thats great. What I don't like is that they fold. So if you put them into a sleeve in order to make damage tracking simple you cannot unfold the card to read the rules. That is a bit annoying. My other issue is that right now it is inconvenient to replace the cards. I will probably replace the ones I need through the store when I do a big order for the gencon stuff, but that does not really work well for most people.

The print-off pdfs are nice, but most people would rather have the actual cards.

[Justin]

The same consistency problem is introduced with Lalo's uber-book idea. You either update rules and make meaningful changes, in which case everyone is upset at having to buy the new book, or you don't - in which case you've just spent a ton of time and effort on a book that a lot of your customers won't buy, and created a "Page X of which book again?" problem. This is, again, something that has been done - Flames of War has a mini-rulebook with most of the rules, but they're all on different pages. It's a hassle.

Honestly, I'd love to see everything you're suggesting, and Lalo is suggesting. But I don't think it's realistic from a cost or effort issue to expect Wyrd, or any company, to do this.

It becomes very worth it because of the model rules and, eventually, the avatar rules.

Differing page numbers is really pretty inconsequential compared to the simple ability to point a new player at a book and say, "There, everything you need."

And old players will buy them, simply for convenience. Which version of the card do you have? Eh, whatever, it's in the book.

Look at games workshop. Not a great example of a lot of things, but their mini rulebook + big rulebook is pretty nice.

Even if they were tot totally break even financially on this book, it's completely worth the effort because it's not about selling books; it's about selling models. More accessible rules means more new players means more model sales.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Justin

[Buhallin]

Look at games workshop. Not a great example of a lot of things, but their mini rulebook + big rulebook is pretty nice.

Maybe... But it's not a gream comparison, because GW never updates their books at all. Everything you're saying here should happen, GW doesn't do.

<shrug> It's easy to say it should happen, but if it were that easy, I tend to think they'd do it. There's a lot more involved in it than I think you're crediting.

[Justin]

Maybe... But it's not a gream comparison, because GW never updates their books at all. Everything you're saying here should happen, GW doesn't do.

<shrug> It's easy to say it should happen, but if it were that easy, I tend to think they'd do it. There's a lot more involved in it than I think you're crediting.

The point about GW was simply about a company that had a large and small book with matching page numbers, which both sell. Their model rules work entirely differently than Wyrd or Privateer because they tend to update old lines rather than create new ones (for the most part) which cuts down on SKU creep for stores because when new stuff comes out, old stuff cycles out. But they have that luxury, because they have old lines to update. So, different story entirely there. Point was simply about the format of the rulebooks, and that both large and small versions sell.

Didn't say it was easy. Just said it was in their best interests. And I think it's a point worth making, because the customers that they're losing over this aren't customers at all...yet. They're the people who look at all the different books they have to go through to figure out the game, shrug their shoulders, and walk away. They don't get on here and complain. The loss is hidden because it's not loss at all: it's lack of growth. But both are just as costly. We're just starting to see a hint of that problem now, but I think after book 3 it will be far larger.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Justin