Bored of Kidnap yet?

[Vaff]

I know I am!

Anyone else run into a Neverborn player who doesn't run kidnap against you as a Resser? (In particular against my pooches!)

It's gotten to the point that If I run the canine remains, I'll run 3 and just keep one in the back in the hope of making the scheme worth the trouble of 2 pts.

I just wish it had an announce built into it. Such a pain!

[LoboStele]

I just wish it had an announce built into it. Such a pain!

Totally agree, and I don't even play Ressers. I play mostly Arcanists or Levi, and it's a pain for those too. It's easy to get Kidnap against either Ramos or Colette, and you don't pick Schemes until after you see your opponent's crew. So a Neverborn player knows quite easily if Kidnap will be a shoe-in or not.

Granted, there are some squads that it really doesn't work well against (Hoffman, for instance), but Neverborn players just pick a different scheme in that instance.

I think an Announce would help it some, even if they didn't have to announce which 3 models they had selected. It does kind of suck that it basically ends up being an automatic 2 points against about half the crews in the game, and against the Resser faction in general.

[Zee]

Tell your friends to vary schemes a little! Playing with/against the same thing becomes less exciting, and mention that. If they refuse, then, well, I don't know what to tell you.

[alienated one]

find new friends?

[LoboStele]

Tell your friends to vary schemes a little! Playing with/against the same thing becomes less exciting, and mention that. If they refuse, then, well, I don't know what to tell you.

Works great if you're just playing casually. But when it comes to tournament or league play, people want to win. Thus you tend to see it over and over again.

[Ratty]

They can't use the same scheme twice in a Gaining Ground Tournament.

[Vaff]

I'm going to make the suggestion to vary schemes to my friends.

One friend in particular has used it probably it against me about 10 games out of 12 since I've started with the Ressers.

While I admit it's not as useful against a handful of crews, I would say it's an auto 2 pts against any crew I run. Especially Hamelin/Nico/McM.

I think the announce would at least save me from being paranoid about if they're running it or not. I would like it to be that they have to kill the units they're targeting, but that would make it way too easy for me to just up and sac them. IDK, I think it needs a bit of balance whenever they get to doing more balancing.

Some ideas:

• Kidnap won't allow targeting of Insignificent models for choices.
  
• The models being targeted must be over a certain soulstone cost. (What's the sense of kidnapping low cost units?)
  
• Must announce that you're taking kidnap. (Not the targetted models.)
  
• Must announce that you're taking kidnap and which models you're targetting.
  

I don't think all of these should be implemented, but, if at least one of them were implemented it would make it way less auto-2pt-y. :

[LoboStele]

They can't use the same scheme twice in a Gaining Ground Tournament.

Is that a flat rule, or is it dependent on the TO? I guess I can check the doc myself.

Either way, it's still a problem in League play. I suppose it might be worth suggesting to a League organizer that there be a restriction of 1 use of a particular scheme per week for the League, or per night, or something.

[Ratty]

That is a flat rule for Tournament play. It stops continual Hold Out/Bodyguard combos that just make for boring games. But it also stymies the really powerful schemes as you have to choose which matchup you use them in.

I could see something like this working really well for league play.

[Buhallin]

You might try changing up your crew composition a bit. Start with a flesh golem, rogue necromancy, and maybe a belle or punk zombie. Don't give him those cheap options for it. Turn a few soulstones into body parts for Sebastian and McMourning, and make the canine remains first turn. You won't get the mass pack of dogs, but you'll have a few to work with and deny him the easy VP.

[Vaff]

You might try changing up your crew composition a bit. Start with a flesh golem, rogue necromancy, and maybe a belle or punk zombie. Don't give him those cheap options for it. Turn a few soulstones into body parts for Sebastian and McMourning, and make the canine remains first turn. You won't get the mass pack of dogs, but you'll have a few to work with and deny him the easy VP.

I guess it's just sad that I have to change my whole crew around just so he doesn't get 2 VP and it has nothing to do with what he's running, and only the "threat" (because I don't know he'll choose kidnap, it's only been assumed (Correctly) that he's running it.) of him running it. :\

[Buhallin]

I guess it's just sad that I have to change my whole crew around just so he doesn't get 2 VP and it has nothing to do with what he's running, and only the "threat" (because I don't know he'll choose kidnap, it's only been assumed (Correctly) that he's running it.) of him running it. :\

While I understand the frustration of your opponent going back to an easy choice, this is part of game balance. There are going to be things that are more or less effective against certain crews. Crews which rely on cheap, expendable minions are vulnerable to certain schemes (including one of our own, Army of the Dead). Crews that rely on heavy-hitting masters have them as well (Frame for Murder) as do slow-moving crews (Holdout) or lynchpin minions (Grudge/Kill Protoge). Strategy and scheme considerations are as much a part crew selection as what your opponent's crew will include.

It's not like McMourning is incapable of running with a different crew. In essence, you're saying "Your choice beats mine, but I don't want to change my choice so you should change yours." There's nothing really wrong with that if it's what it takes to keep the game fun for everyone, but IMHO it's better to adapt and find a way to deal with it.

[Vaff]

I would say I've been adapting really well to his style of play and I usually have him only get 1 VP now. I guess I would like it to need to be announced for the 2 VP. idk. I guess that's me "wanting him to change because I don't want to."

Needless to say, I'm just going to talk to him and see if he'll lay off it every game we play. It's just boring doing the same guess work every game.

[osoi]

They can't use the same scheme twice in a Gaining Ground Tournament.

And I love that this is so, I would also follow the same sort of rule in league play as well, if you are playing an extended league maybe say that all schemes but be used before you can reuse any of them.

In casual play I will often just try and see if I can accomplish some non standard schemes for my given crew to see how difficult or otherwise it may be if I ever HAVE to use them at a given event.

Its also another way for you to try and push yourself as a player and keep variety and interest in the game.

[Necromorph]

Hahaha...actually, though I do play Mcm, I just played Hamelin against a Neverborn player for the final game of our league...and he didn't take kidnap...which is auto 2vp vs Hamelin.

I knew he is equal or better than me in skill, and I was expecting it, but he took bodyguard /holdout. I won 8-7 (damn jack daw) and just wondered to myself why he didn't take kidnap...he would have won 9-8, lol.

That being said, I think they need to rework some of the faction/master specific schemes...some of them (i.e. kidnap/sabotage) are just way to goddamn easy compared the rest.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Necromorph

[Q'iq'el]

I know I am!

Anyone else run into a Neverborn player who doesn't run kidnap against you as a Resser? (In particular against my pooches!)

It's gotten to the point that If I run the canine remains, I'll run 3 and just keep one in the back in the hope of making the scheme worth the trouble of 2 pts.

I just wish it had an announce built into it. Such a pain!

You misunderstand the purpose of Kidnap.

A Canine Remains based Ressurectionist crew, both fast and resilient, capable of raising even more undead faster, than Neverborn can kill them, is something very hard to overcome for usual crew.

The Kidnap is there, so that you change your list and bring Undead Rider, some Flesh Constructs, perhaps two nurses for ability to heal. Drop some of that deadly counter generation early on, make him have to chose models you won't sacrifice, and he'll go with something different than Kidnap.

And the matchup will be somewhat more interesting for both sides too.

[Necromorph]

This is true, Q. However, as you pick schemes after you choose your crews, it can be harder to avoid. Especially if you're going the objective saturation route (Claim Jump, Recon, etc.) and you may have more low ss cost models, it's much easier for them to pull off kidnap.

It's not completely unavoidable, but you can avoid it in the right situations...ummm...yeah.

[Keltheos]

One thing to consider is that while he's chasing those models down you have more control over the rest of the table. Makes it easier for you to look at your strats and schemes. Use the scheme against them, force them to pursue the models into areas that are far away from what you need to achieve, or lure them into traps that make your own strats/schemes easier to achieve. It may be a tradeoff for you to lose the couple VP in exchange for pulling off your strat and/or one or more schemes.

Use the knowledge they'll bring it offensively instead of always defensively. Don't, 'how do I protect my models'. Instead, 'how can I turn this to my advantage when I fight NB?'

Players who like guaranteed things (like what they think are assured VP for Kidnap) hate it when the tables are turned and it's used against them. Trust me, I know.

[Drake]

2 points to bear in mind with this topic.

1, if you have a crew that generally sacrifices its own models to comnine into better ones, such as Arachnids/Coryphee/Steampunk Abominations, then that is pretty much guaranteed vps for your opponent. you cant use it against them as you almost have to give them the vp to use your crew (esp with Coryphee)

2, in tournament play, most TOs run it that you can only use a single scheme once each day, not the for Tournament. So say in a 5/6 game tournament over 2 days, that scheme can be used twice, despite Gaining Ground saying otherwise. The tournaments I have played/due to play, all run Gaining Ground in this way, to increase flexibility in choosing schemes, but thereby making it possible for this scheme to be used more than once.

Just a couple of comments to add to this discussion....

[Q'iq'el]

This is true, Q. However, as you pick schemes after you choose your crews, it can be harder to avoid. Especially if you're going the objective saturation route (Claim Jump, Recon, etc.) and you may have more low ss cost models, it's much easier for them to pull off kidnap.

It's not completely unavoidable, but you can avoid it in the right situations...ummm...yeah.

You know at the very least the opponent's faction, don't you (even if informally)?

If you select a crew that is not vulnerable to Kidnap, the Neverborn player won't take Kidnap (well, maybe he's really set in his ways ).

There really is a double effect of these faction specific Schemes. They help to balance their crew against the type of opponent the crew has trouble with (and that's why they seem to be very easy 2 VP), but they also encourage the opponent to take a crew which won't automatically yield these 2 VP... and such a crew will provide for more balanced and interesting Encounter.

So in the end it works pretty well and leads to very simple conclusion:

If you hate seeing Kidnap every time you play, hire different minions.

If you don't have the models yet, try to proxy for a friendly game and see how it goes - if you like it, you'll get these models next.

[Q'iq'el]

2 points to bear in mind with this topic.

1, if you have a crew that generally sacrifices its own models to comnine into better ones, such as Arachnids/Coryphee/Steampunk Abominations, then that is pretty much guaranteed vps for your opponent. you cant use it against them as you almost have to give them the vp to use your crew (esp with Coryphee)

Yes, but there's reason for that - most Neverborn crews (but especially Lilith/Nephilim) have a very hard time with crews that can easily generate multiple cheap models. I bet it has a lot to do with the fact Nephilim are deadly to elite models, but reasonably weak on defense (and can be swarmed).

It's a bit ironic that Lilith herself can field a list which is easy to hit with Kidnap now, but even that list is merely about making her model hit harder, not more numerous or survivable.

So if you take a swarming list based on sacrificing own models, you are already fielding a very hard counter to most elite Neverborn lists you can face.

Coryphée are the exception here, but then they provide only 2 out of 3 models you have to get to fulfill Kidnap, so it isn't that automatic in the end (and the Duet is a hard nut to crack for melee oriented crews).

2, in tournament play, most TOs run it that you can only use a single scheme once each day, not the for Tournament. So say in a 5/6 game tournament over 2 days, that scheme can be used twice, despite Gaining Ground saying otherwise. The tournaments I have played/due to play, all run Gaining Ground in this way, to increase flexibility in choosing schemes, but thereby making it possible for this scheme to be used more than once.

Just a couple of comments to add to this discussion....

That is a very interesting approach to provide variety in games. I definitely agree that it deals well with these players who always choose the Schemes they are the most comfortable with. That also means you have to save schemes like Kidnap till you face a type of crew where you really need it to win. Great idea in this aspect.

On the other hand, if someone is unlucky and faces summoning crews from the get go till his last match, the lack of access to the most balancing Scheme can hurt the fair chances a lot. Perhaps players shouldn't be allowed to field the same crew more than once too?

Edited June 21, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Mydnight]

How do they keep track of schemes at tournaments? Some schemes require you to list/note things secretly, is there a way to keep track of that?

[alienated one]

How do they keep track of schemes at tournaments? Some schemes require you to list/note things secretly, is there a way to keep track of that?

In our tournaments, you write them down on a piece of paper, and stash it to the side. At the end of the game, hidden schemes are revealed.

[xxXhayzelXxx]

*kidnaps Alienated One and runs off* mwhahah my version of Kidnap!!!

[LoboStele]

Go to Ratty's website (linked in his sig) and print out the Strategy/Scheme cards he has on there. Then you can pull out the cards for the Schemes you want to pick. If you want to keep one un-announced, you can still pull it out of the stack of cards, and just set it face-down off to the side somewhere. Then flip it over at the end of the game. :thumb: