The Game and the Business

[ThePandaDirector]

Introduction - "You cannot lose if you do not play"

Hello. Let me start with a disclaimer asking you to think carefully about what you post here and remain objective and open-minded.

Why? Well that's because I've posted this thread to take the wave of reactionary anti-Games Workshop "discussions" and open up a more insightful debate aimed at achieving a clearer understanding of the relationship between a miniature company and its customers with inevitable reference to Wyrd. Oh and for the lazy of eye I'd say the last section asks the questions worth debating most.

Got that? If you want to moan or post "Privateer Press ftw GW sucks!" then go to another forum. Here at the Wyrd forum we think before we speak and accept all opinions.

Now with that out of the way I shall start by highlighting the key issues many have with GW of late:

1. The replacement of their metal range with a resin based material (called Finecast)
   
2. Another 17% (iirc) price hike accross the entire range (including books)
   
3. The sales embargo of online independent websites selling their product internationally
   
4. The general repackaging of many products (£18 for 10 Ork Boyz)
   

Now I recently watched Beasts of War's live Turn 8 which had a long discussion on the matter and it has been going on on many forums for awhile now (to the point where another is hardly welcome). Many people are declaring boycott and "voting with your wallet" while others resign that people will just accept the price like they have in the past. This wave of rather mind numbing rambling has also been accomponied by a growing awareness and acceptance of "alternative games" such as Wyrd =)

Games Workshop - "The King stay the King"

Firstly I would like to briefly give my opinion of GW, which introduced me to the hobby and, like many others, has been a big part of my life. I would argue that the quality of GW has both grown and remained consistent over the years. For me quality of their models has increased - the gorgeous Dark Eldar for example - while the ratio of good-bad models has remained consistent - I personally find the TK Sphinx too static. Many also note that the average points in a game has increased over time, along with expansions such as Apocolypse. So while they provide lovely models, make it easier for you to field more models, they completely contradict these points in their prices. For £18 I can get a unit of 36 Perry Miniature ACW Rifleman or 10 Orks for Warhammer. This is made worse by the fact I would only need say 4/5 boxes of those riflemen to have a substantial force (I'm not familiar with historical gaming), but would need about 10 Orc boxes to build a decent core for a much larger orc army.

Now I don't think I need to even start comparing GW with Wyrd. We all know and love Wyrd for its accessability, awesome minis and honest customer service. Now I was put off starting Warmachine due to my 35pts list costing £130, only to realise that the same army for 40K would cost me twice that. Now this has all been stated before and it perhaps implies that I have joined the many boycotting GW. However, the fact remains that GW is a massive company, that they are not evil and make great miniatures. I eventually realised that the main thing GW has over other companies (including Wyrd) is the hobby aspect of miniatures, especially modelling. With their huge range of models and varied plastic kits it is really easy to make unique models. It is why I am more likely to now play Mordheim instead of warhammer, Necromunda instead of 40K, I can get the individualism GW minis provide for fairly cheap. Over time I may build these "crews" into warbands (maybe making up some house rules to allow better small scale warfare) and then eventually an army that I can genuinely relate to on a narrative basis (I love my fluff). Sadly for GW it means that long list of armies I want will be brutally cut, but it also means that I can get what I want out of a game that I have felt diconnected with, without just "jumping ship" and being dramatic about it.

The Rising Powers - "You come at the King, you best not miss"

Oops, that wasn't quite as brief as I thought, but that's only a part of the discussion. The second part relates to the wider industry and what companies such as Wyrd can learn from GW and its customers. Now I don't want to put other companies under GW shadow here, such a notion seems the norm, but I don't personally get it when the only difference in my mind is GW are older i.e. more "established" than being a powerful empire (all empires fall mind). Rather I wonder what can other companies do to capitalise on opportunity GW have provided them without setting themselves up to follow the same path.

The guys at Wyrd have had to remind us on a number of occassions that they are a business, and as such can not honestly state that profit is not close to its core. They have been attacked on occassions by many who take their economic hobby for granted. However, as I have mentioned to GW and many emphatically state around the web, Wyrd have somehow managed to find a place in the market where they can afford to have both a growing business - and hopefully good profits - and relatively universal customer satisfaction. Now many wonder where they will be in 10-20 years time and its safe to say they will be plenty of trials for them if they wish to be as segemented in the industry as GW. The biggest trial though is to know when the potential for making more profits actually costs you more due to the loss of customer satisfaction. Wyrd had a price rise not too long ago and it was barley felt, not only because it was so small but because they don't "control" the market like GW does. And as previously stated it is easier and cheaper to have the complete Wyrd experience than it is to own a single army for each of GW's systems. Does this allow Wyrd room to raise prices further in the future, to capitalise on a growing and willing customer base? Will companies be hemmed into classifications - Privateer Press being the "play like you got a pair" gamers game, Wyrd the "you're Guild Guard doesn't seem to have a name?" narrative game and Corvus Beli providing the "be as big a geek as you like" cherry on top, with others filling other roles.

Now I have issues with every company I discover, Privateer Press is expanding too fast for my liking - I feel like I'll never get Cygnar light cavalry and Ranger solos for my Kraye army - and the repetition of sculpts - while neverthless expanding to Apocolypse scale - is bordering criminal. Smog 1888 looks great but some miniatures look too display-like to be used in game (I'm looking at you Doctor Zeels) - while Wyrd will need to start providing either alternative sculpts or ones easier to convert if it wants to allow bigger games (I would personally love to see a Warhammer Quest type game with even the possability of a range of plastic/resin Malifaux "adventurer" kits ).

The Future - "Game's the same, just got more fierce"

So there are issues with every company, but while GW have the profits and must surely make some attempt to sooth their customer satisfaction, other companies already have strong - admittedly cult-like - followings that have potential to grow massively. But what will these companies do with their newfound power, will they raise the pedestal their customers placed them on, will they spread themselves too thin and risk wide spread alienation or will they lose out finacially under customer pressure? Also, do you think it is easy for GW to hold its mantle, would a release of a new Warhammer Quest or similar Space Hulk event steal other companies thunder?

I would personally like to see a more balanced industry where price ranges are relatively universal and the only choice is a matter of taste and scale (scale of miniatures as well as game). The computer gaming industry does not have the price issues the miniature industry has, but then computer game companies are losing out because many are pirating their games because they don't have the same sense of loyalty to the companies than we apparently do (would GW get away with what they do if they were a computer game developer?) The obvious issue here is gaming has its big 3 (Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) who keep each other in check and balance prices across the board - the problem of pirating being more an issue of product quality and marketing as opposed to price. Does gaming need this kind of stability? I think GW certainly need some company on top, but then is this hobby about singular big companies or varied companies formed as a collective through independent retailers. Do film, games and music production companies suffer by having all their products lost in a single store? Do miniature companies benefit from being directly held in contrast to their competition?

Whatever the answer, how do you think it is possible to apply it? Do game companies need to reach an agreement with each other? Do the growing companies like Wyrd and PP have to be more brutal and capitalise on GW's losses in the hope of bringing the old beast down? Or do you think think the industry isn't as radical as this and the patterns of the last few decades will continue while keeping the industry stable?

Sorry about that, but I hate this sort of thing (debating and all that), but I feel that somewhere in this controversal topic and rambling post, there may be lessons worth learning. It is my hope that Wyrd stays strong and continues to grow as both a business and a hobby, and never forgets the importance of the link between them.

Now take a break - you deserve it - come back if you want and let your voice be heard (by Wyrd if no one else).

Edited May 21, 2011 by ThePandaDirector

[EricJ]

A wall of text, but a ton of great thoughts/observations!

I'm not exactly in the best situation to comment (at least publicly) on a lot of this, but I think there is a lot to think about in there.

[Kaine]

My gut feeling is Wyrd have the release schedule about right, they are producing enough models to fill in each years book.

I think the area's Wyrd struggle in (and i know they are working on this) is having enough people around to do all those other things that help out, like

Revised Website

Game Promotion

Ancillary products (t-shirts, soulstone counters, strategy decks etc)

Wyrd has a huge community following and i think the company is set to go from strength to strength, the card mechanic is still a unique selling point to the game, others have tried to imitate it with little success.

The biggest threat is the huge number of skirmish games entering the market and diluting the market, relic knights, super dungeon explore, mercs, and many others.

As long as Wyrd continue to produce good mini's (95% are great, some are a little meh), and keep rolling out a new book each year with good background material and new masters/content i think they will do fine and continue to eat into the market share of the big players.

[ThePandaDirector]

@EricJ: Got a bit carried away, but yeah it's hard to comment on the industry you belong to without knowing how it will impact you and others.

You bring up a good point Kaine, about the wave of new skirmish games, many of which have caught onto the card mechanic. It's no longer popular to just produce minis, you gotta make a game for them now

I study Bsc Film Production Technology (more practical and technology based than media or film studies) and one of the biggest debates going on is the response to cheap technology. It is now possible for just about anyone to make a film, post it on the internet and potentially make a lot of money from it (Paranormal Activity). Good news for indie filmmakers who would have had to wait years to even have a chance at making a film in the past, but then how do you sift through the sea of films, filtering the good from the bad?

It's not quite the same in the miniature industry, but with GW "deserters" providing a watering hole in the market, more companies are going to pop up and this means gamers are divided in what game to chose, considering they can't afford to do them all. It's my opinion that pushing the miniature industry as a WHOLE will benefit all. If I see Malifaux, Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, Smog 1888, Freebooter's Fate, Perry Miniatures and others on the shelf and in display cases, I am more likely to get into the hobby - starting with whichever takes my fancy most. In time - if I like what I've seen - helpful and inspiring marketing and engaging and informed communities will lead me to expand and remain a hobbyist for a long time. However, if the prices are too steep or I get a narrow view of the hobby I will be intimidated to make any form of investment. New gamers don't have loyalties and a lack of variety in the market does not benefit the industry. I will collect Malifaux if I like steampunk cowboys led by a hot gunslinger, but if I like big killy undead robots then Warmachine is for me. Of course, a big part of gaming is community and if none of my friends do it, I'll be damned if I look like a geek who plays with toy soldiers.

I've always felt the miniature industry has worked underground a lot and has generally failed to engage with the vast amount of geeks and creative minds that are out there in the world. Are games really too complex? Is their static nature and invesment (money and assembly) off putting in a world of fast delivery, shiny graphics and relentlessly-in-your-face marketing?

Sorry about all the long posts, but I always see negatives in things, and every now and then I'm compelled to try and change them.

[osoi]

Two big walls of text but very good observations. I stopped playing 40k a few years ago now becuase of price and the number of minis I needed. For me smaller systems like Malifaux are ideal in that they suit my lifestyle and budget (not to say that at last count I had close to 100 Wyrd minis and have about 150 Bloodbowl minis (another game I love to play)). I have played a bit of WM/Hordes but I am not liking the direction its going, plus for me there area lot more sculpts that do not appeal to my taste. Malifaux is almost the oppiste I am struggling to find minis I dont want to pick up (and this isnt just fanboyism) yes there are better sculpts than others but thats inevitiable.

As for why there isnt a broader appeal to miniature industry, I know I might be in the minority but I prefer to spend my time doing something productive (sculpting, converting, painting or terrain making) than sitting in front of my games console to play a game. Maybe the greater social trend of instant gratification is working against the broader appeal.

For me a skirmish size game is going to attract me more than an army sized game and yes there are a lot of them popping up at the moment. However I believe Wyrd is in a strong place as the use of cards is not just a gimmick to set them apart but actually works as an integral part of the game in both gameplay and background.

Theres plenty more for me to say but I will leave it there for the time being. Nice thread topic

[ThePandaDirector]

Good points osoi. I would say that the things that get me into a game are 1st models/artwork, 2nd visual of game (boardgame, cards, dice, etc), 3rd the price, 4th stories/character and lastly the rules themsleves. It's about engaging with ones imagination before allowing them to access the game and step-by-step discover the hobby. Maybe bringing the hobby more into schools or something would help. Hobby shops - I've been to - don't seem to effectively display models, acting more like a library that must be searched than an inspiring display of the hobby. GW is probably best at marketing with displays and introduction games instore, could others learn from this? Is there ways to make the game side more accessible for non-hobbyists i.e. quick gratification?

Easy/cheap to access but lots of depth/variety to get your hardcore teeth into. I see a lot of this, yet my non-gamer friends still struggle. They have been enjoying the Puppet Wars playtest though

So how does an entire industry expand and stay fresh?

Posts are getting smaller, I'm trying

[Ratty]

I think your post is almost contrary to GW greatest selling point. If you have tonnes of different games you end up with the issue that each group is playing different games, if your friends leave go off the hobby you have to buy a new game or find people and persuade them to play your game.

With GW you know that if the worse happens you can walk into a GW and have a game. So what does this mean. Well I think it means that to be successful you need to have something like Henchmen or Pressgangers set up. People need to know if they go to a new city they can find someone to play against. So they feel that the game has some weight behind it.

[ThePandaDirector]

Is it hard to find new gamers or push a new game? It's certainly not hard to find a GW.

I would say that GW's hold on the market is directly due to their stores, as it is easy to see the game on display and then get regular games there (unless your GW closes). However, they don't allow you to play any other game. Would a store similar to GW that displayed multiple systems be at a disadvantage, are clubs diluted by not being "aligned"? Would you say that each system should have henchmen who are responsible for setting up clubs for their system with multiple, seperate clubs in each city where a game takes hold in. Finally how can companies stimulate such expansions and get the word out on those supposedly dying highstreets GW seem to own?

Wyrd have presence in the hobby community - online and in gaming clubs - but how do they/anyone go about reaching out beyond?

[Justin]

There's a lot here and I only read the OP, but I only have two things to say right off.

The first is that there is no such thing as a product that is too expensive. Only a product which has bad value. In other words: if people pay it, the price isn't too high. So although GW may be raising their prices, if it doesn't tank the company, I don't blame them. Also they have stock holders and a board of directors to answer to, unlike most of their competition.

Also, if the GW Empire does "fall" I think it would be a terrible thing for Wyrd, and the entire miniatures industry. I don't think all of those people who had played GW games would flee to smaller miniatures companies. Some would, inevitably. But I think most would wonder away and watch some TV, play some video games. Ultimately Wyrd's biggest competition isn't GW, it's...anything that might take up a person's time which doesn't involve tiny metal men. Which is a lot of stuff. And ultimately GW tends to introduce new people into the hobby who branch out (or leave GW in disgust) and find new games, like Malifaux.

Now a bad edition or two might mean huge growth for Malifaux. But GW going under completely? I think that would be detrimental, to every miniatures company.

[Ratty]

Now a bad edition or two might mean huge growth for Malifaux. But GW going under completely? I think that would be detrimental, to every miniatures company.

I think the best thing possible is GW dumbing down there games to a point where Kids get into it and then move on to real games later on. One thing GW is really good at is bringing kids into the gaming industry.

[ThePandaDirector]

Good points. I understand I'm asking lots of questions and making statements that seem narrow/contradictary, but that is just to get people thinking about the miniature industry outside of the norms of current patterns.

The last thing I would want to see is GW collapse, mainly for the reasons already stated, plus I like their models. In terms of dumbing down they're certainly going that way and its dead easy to be introduced and grasp the game fairly well by just popping into a store while searching the highstreet with mummy and daddy. But surely the focus on having lots of lovely models, including lots of big models and fielding all these lovely models in big awesome games is completely contradicted by the prices which will scare parents away more than their children. Perhaps simply having a better small scale option (Necromunda, etc) would allow a cheaper form of investment without being complicated.

The crux of the whole thread is not so much to highlight GWs faults, or any companies, but to ask what is the best way to move forward - maintaining a balance between finance and customer satisfaction. Hobbyists do more for a company than any other customer for any other company/product except possibly fashion (obviously). Even if we are cheap as heck =]

Lalo you say that the greatest competition for any miniature company is anything that doesn't involve aspects of the hobby i.e. popular entertainment. Now we are at the centre, and the most important question. How does a company like Wyrd grow/thrive in a market controlled by GW and reduced by other popular enterntainment (which provide so called "instant gratification") while maintaining a balance (both short and long term) between healthy financial growth and a majority of customer satisfaction (can't please everyone)?

Big question (literally). I personally apply it to every miniature company becasue I think they are linked, but just applying it to Wyrd is complicated enough. Now sure, the issue of price is simply a matter of "is it worth it yes/no?" But as you stated Lalo, if people do something that isn't hobby related then no company benefits. So if GW fails to hold people who aren't ready for other games and doesn't bring in as many new gamers due to parents who's wallets are maybe a bit tighter than before, then that's lost gamers. They might have a negative opinion not of GW, but miniatures as a whole, and go play their CoD or whatever and bring their friends with them.

This sounds negative, narrow minded and possibly drunken (no just tired). It's an issue that will possibly come and go and everything will be like it has always been. But for this moment there is a - small - potential to highlight some the rights and wrongs in relation to achieving the above, so that companies who have earned the privilege (not the right) of hobbyists money and respect, can dully take note.

Now I'm not a doomsayer, the hobby will stay strong and I imaginge Wyrd and GW will get on swinmmingly, but are numerous examples of fanatical fans throwing the toys out of the pram an excuse for not engaging with ones customer base when they argue against something that may make sense (on paper) financially. This whole thread is theory aimed to subconciously keep Wyrd aware of the unique role/position a business occupies in the miniature industry and the responsability and balancing act that brings.

In other words this whole thread could be summed up in 11 words -

"You are doing great, keep it up, or I will cry."

Did I take the long way round with that one or what? (another blooming question?)

[magicpockets]

I think this is a great thread and raises many interesting points. I'd like to thrown my two cents in to the mix on a couple of things that have been covered, and then in the next post something I think is a real missed opportunity by Wyrd which could help them grow a lot quicker (in terms of market penetration).

First, there was a point about companies working together to keep prices in check/on a similar level (in the OP I recall). This is great in theory but is illegal in the UK and (I think) the European Union - as is setting minimum retail prices for models (something I believe you can do in the USA).

On another point, I think there's a real issue that GW players (esp the younger market) are GW gamers and not miniature gamers - there's a real snobbery/ignorance which GW have built in their customers (fair play to them) that other games are a lower class/not as good as GW products. This means Wyrd's market is not every gamer, but a percentage of the gamer market. Same if I want to sell baked beans, my market is not everyone who ever buys beans, but people who buy beans who don't have a unwavering loyalty to a specific brand

This all comes down to how GW have carried out their marketing over the years (which I'll talk about in my next post) and means GW gamers aren't all going to default to other games if GW charges too much or if they go under (I think Ratty suggested this point too). I'd suggest Wyrd's primary market is gamers playing other non-GW systems - and that this is where the real market opportunity lies. Focus on becoming second before chasing first.

Okay, post break to save tired eyes

[magicpockets]

Now we get onto my favourite topic - marketing For me, this is where GW have excelled over the past years, but have arguably slipped in recent times. And this is where Wyrd have a LOT of potential open to them to really take a leading position in the indie market.

First, consider GW. A network of gaming centres (their stores) to introduce the hobby and provide an environment to play it. National retail presence and a comprehensive product line (again through stores and now online). A channel for promoting upcoming releases to their market and maintaining regular contact with their customers (White Dwarf). The leading position in the market, which makes displacement almost impossible without screwing something up really badly.

This gives GW a lot of strength, but also a few problems (mainly the expense of supporting the retail network and the publication of White Dwarf)

Now consider Wyrd in comparison. They have a similar network of "gaming centres" which was developed and is maintained by the Henchman program. National retail presence and online distribution through indie shops and websites. Regular communication through this forum.

And whilst it seems "similar", Wyrd face a huge problem (and this is one of GW greatest strengths) - "mind share".

When you walk into a GW store you only see, play and buy GW products. When you walk into an indie store or a club, you see all sorts of games, play all sorts of games and can buy all sorts of games. This gives wyrd less mind share, and therefore less "wallet share", in each environment than GW (which is at 100%) - which goes straight to their bottom line.

This also influences take up and support of Malifaux. If you've got a store which prefers Dystopian Wars - they'll encourage people to play Dystopian Wars. If you sell mostly Warmachine, you'll stock mostly warmachine.(I know this isn't rocket science, but it's important before looking at possible solutions).

In a GW store, if you don't like Bloodbowl you buy 40K and GW still get paid, in an indie store if you don't like Malifaux you move to another game - but Wyrd don't get paid anymore.

So that's "mind share" (and it's sister "wallet share"). But you've also got two more inherent issues to tackle - erratas and the low entry cost -

1) We all know there's a lot of erratas/faq etc in the game, but because of how Wyrd handle it and because of their presence on here we support them and generally accept it. However this is an issue for new players and people outside of the forum "bubble" - it puts up a barrier to entry, it disheartens some players who give up on Malifaux, and it gives loyalists of other systems ammunition to turn potential players away from the game.

2) Malifaux is great because it is cheap to get started with - we all know that and it's how we sell it. The reality is though, it means I can walk away and I've only lost $50 - that means there is an increased risk of player turn-over than in other systems where the investment is significantly higher.

So for me that's the three main problems Wyrd face - mind share, erratas and the low cost/high risk of turnover

How could Wyrd tackle it?

Firstly, they need to build a better communication channel with their end users. This forum is great but it's a small bubble in the (albeit core) of their market. I'd suggest they should capture contact details for end users and communicate with them through email marketing and social media - drawing people here to the forum and also keeping in touch with those who don't want to come to the forum. This will let Wyrd share their personality with customers thereby reducing gamer turn-over, increasing loyalty (which will impact on growth in stores/clubs), and increasing tolerance and understanding re the erratas. Also, it tackles mind share as you're no longer relying on the indie store/gamers to be the middlemen distorting/de-prioritising your message. Think of it as a bite-sized White Dwarf strategy and you'll see what I mean.

Second, think about "network effects". NOTHING at the minute is designed for me to share it with my friends and fellow gamers - whether that's things I can click on to post to Facebook or send in an email ("wow bob, have you seen this new Nekima model!!") or step-by-step how to get started/introduce your mates to Malifaux (I'm not talking Henchmen, I'm talking "this looks cool, how do we give it a go?"). Gamers know gamers, people who play Malifaux play other systems - this is where you'll see a return on very little investment.

Third,bite the bullet and sort the rule books out. Make book one and Rising Powers exactly as they should be if you'd wrote them now. If Malifaux is still here in 5 years, will people still be buying the mini rule book with the "proper rules" alongside their starter kits? I doubt that's what you want - invest in a rewrite and do a new edition of the first two books like you did with the cards, then give people an incentive to buy them (trade in old books for a discount?) - it's not ideal but it's a speed bump in the scheme of things.

Fourth, remove the friction to getting started - this is a reiteration of the points above in a different way. By sorting the rule books, making the game easy to start and introduce to your friends, having "starter kits", maybe a "starter rule set" to get into the dynamic - you make the game easy to pick up and play. Sure developing the system and selling new sculpts is crucial, but you can sell more of what you've already got to a lot more people if you make the game more accessible.

These are three/four easy starting points I think you could really make a huge difference with and (aside from the art-working which I'm not familiar with the cost of) would cost you very little to implement (I know, this is what my company does for clients day in and day out). You could break new ground with how you market Malifaux and Puppet Wars and be a HUGE gaming company - there's a massive opportunity to be the first to reinvent marketing, it's there for the taking.

*DISCLAIMER - this is a very, very long post and some of the point seem to raise more questions than they answer (i.e. "its okay saying we need to communicate with end users but how do we do that exactly with a retailer in the middle?"). However for the sake of relative brevity I've kept as many details out as possible. Happy to discuss, defend, expand on anything above if anyone has any questions.

Edited May 21, 2011 by magicpockets

[Chucklemonkey]

I think this is a great thread and raises many interesting points. I'd like to thrown my two cents in to the mix on a couple of things that have been covered, and then in the next post something I think is a real missed opportunity by Wyrd which could help them grow a lot quicker (in terms of market penetration).

First, there was a point about companies working together to keep prices in check/on a similar level (in the OP I recall). This is great in theory but is illegal in the UK and (I think) the European Union - as is setting minimum retail prices for models (something I believe you can do in the USA.

I too am finding this thread very interesting.

In terms of pricing, firstly, yes price fixing is also illegal in Europe.

Healthy competition keeps prices naturally stable however, so should the likes of Wyrd, pp and corvus bellli get to a stage where the GW execs see real movement away from their products to others then they would be forced to start being a little more cautious with their pricing structures. Despite what we would possibly wish for, and I'm Not sure I do, the others are simply not at a point where this is occurring.

Many of the reasons why that is the case have already been mentioned, gamers misplaced snobbery, the ease gw have recruiting new converts due to high street presence etc.

It is hard to say what would move those companies forward to the point where genuine pressure was being placed, all of them have people who will be getting paid and are qualified to come up with those ideas and it hasn't yet occured.

For continued success on the scale at present there are a couple of well trodden paths such as the board game. Personally I think what might really push wyrd to the point where they are chasing WM/H though will be terraclips. People seeing the game being played on a hopefully quality and relatively cheap product will be attracted to it. Gamers of other systems will buy it for use in their games, maybe even d and d gamers. If as has been suggested other kits would follow, and they look outside of Malifaux, the options really open up. If GW average newer player could see some sort of tclip spacestation I'm pretty sure they would buy it, even tho it's not gw.

The potential orders from gaming clubs alone could really make a hit.

I just hope the production nightmare of the last year doesn't stop wyrd from really looking to take this product and run with it.

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts, hope to bring more when I'm Not typing on a phone with a stylus.

[Alphawog]

I think the idea of "GW snobbery" being instilled by that company is false. Most companies will toot their own horns, I'm sure Wyrd is not above that either. I think what is being witnessed is brand incorporation into self-identity. This is somewhat common across many age ranges but is really common in the teen and young adult groups. Basically, it is just being a loyal fan. Every company would love to have that type of customer. On the other side, companies like Wyrd probably benefit from the GW burnouts that no longer strongly identify with that brand. Some will become Wyrd snobs, but most will realize that there are plenty of good miniatures and games from a variety of companies now that they have lost the initial identity association.

On another note, I think the GW customer that will most likely be buying into Malifaux are:

1) Hobbyist sick of painting 20 of the same/similar model

2) Gamers that have large armies in the closet waiting to be put together and painted

3) Fans of the previous GW skirmish/small group games, e.g. Mordheim, BB, Necromunda, Gorka Morka

[magicpockets]

all of them have people who will be getting paid and are qualified to come up with those ideas and it hasn't yet occured.

Couple of ideas to bounce off you -

1) We're at a change in how marketing works and very few people "get it" (that's why my company is asked to work with existing marketing teams rather than the client simply recruiting into their headcount). A lot of company's will be doing "what's always worked" rather than trying to break new ground. I used to do national marketing for Audi (who are recognised as innovative when it comes to marketing) and even they stick to "tried and tested" with the vast majority of their budget.

2) Marketing is an expense and I'm guessing it's something most indie games companies feel they have to de-prioritise, so chances are it falls to the owner or someone who has another role alongside. This means the right experience/ability isn't there to make the best of the opportunity.

3) Lastly I'd guess most people working in gaming companies are gamers at heart and their innovation lies in the game development. Marketers may not be gamers and therefore don't "get" the product/market. This makes it hard to find the right person to push the marketing forward.

GW have the budget for this, another advantage of being the biggest and market leader

[magicpockets]

I think the idea of "GW snobbery" being instilled by that company is false. Most companies will toot their own horns, I'm sure Wyrd is not above that either. I think what is being witnessed is brand incorporation into self-identity.

Agreed, although I think you may have mistook the point I was making. Because GW is typically the first contact new gamers have with table top gaming, they get to shape their perception of what gaming is - and there's very much a case of there's our games and "other" "lesser" games. It's a market leaders prerogative to do this and I would recommend it as a marketing strategy - my point was only that this prejudices the total market and leaves Wyrd with a smaller market than it may first appear.

Many GW gamers will not play Malifaux because it isn't GW, and many will never see it because it isn't GW. You can't assume (I don't mean specifically Alphawog, this is a general point) that once a gamer stops GW gaming they're automatically a target for Wyrd - nor can you presume that because they're a "gamer" they'll be open minded to non-GW systems, either now or in the future ("when they grow up" etc)

Marketing is about targeting your message and budget into the most effective channels and market segments, all I was suggesting is that there are niches within the gamer community which should be prioritised rather than taking a "we need to beat GW" approach.

[Alphawog]

On the note about erratas and books. I have yet to jump into buying any of the books(I intend to play via the free pdf until I'm completely sold). I'd like to point out that to get all the rules, fluff, and stat card information for Malifaux, would currently cost $85. With the next book releasing shortly and an assumed price of $35 the total will then become $120. This seems like quite a bit for books when $35-$40 of miniatures can be used to play. Or to put it another way, I could buy 4 crews for the price of the books. I applaud the $15 rulebook and free pdf, otherwise I probably wouldn't be trying the game at all unless I caught a demo. However, I think that the longer this book each year trend continues the less appealing the game will be to prospective players.

[magicpockets]

I'd like to point out that to get all the rules, fluff, and stat card information for Malifaux, would currently cost $85. With the next book releasing shortly and an assumed price of $35 the total will then become $120. This seems like quite a bit for books when $35-$40 of miniatures can be used to play. Or to put it another way, I could buy 4 crews for the price of the books. I applaud the $15 rulebook and free pdf, otherwise I probably wouldn't be trying the game at all unless I caught a demo. However, I think that the longer this book each year trend continues the less appealing the game will be to prospective players.

I definitely know what you're saying, although I think the book each year thing is okay as you don't have to buy them to get started (they're essentially expansions) and the rules come on the cards if you buy the model.

What I hear a lot is people don't like having to buy book one and another rule book alongside with the "correct" rules. Plus, this sends out a very poor message about the game to a potential player, and it's an easy jibe for non-players to knock Malifaux with.

Also, and this has only come to me with your last comment, one of the biggest hooks into Malifaux that I heard is the fluff and artwork - it's what got me into the game and it's what gets the game attention when we play it. If new players are using the pdf because they're put off by the rulebook situation then Wyrd are losing the pull of the fluff/artwork.

Edited May 21, 2011 by magicpockets

[Alphawog]

A lot of people also would not want to buy miniatures for a game without knowing the stats. While pdf versions of Book 1(I think) v2 cards are online, I'm in the dark when it comes to buying models outside of there. The packaging of the models does not show the stats either. So while technically only the pdf/cheap book is required, it doesn't really encourage me to buy anything more. Also, some of the models from book one need models from book two to function it seems. For instance, Leveticus has a card but the Steampunk Abominations do not. While Leveticus sounds like a lot of fun to play, I have about half the picture of options he can field with.

[FoeRender]

Here is my view , we control the , market as gamers and costumers . I have slowed down massively on GW product . why ? , because there prices have gotten to the point of bring ridicules . Not only do they raise the prices but they re-box the product giving you fewer models , which essentially means the price hike is even higher than what they want you to believe . Than they have a horrible release schedule , no player should have to wait 10 years for there faction to be revised . Also they change rule sets not to make the game better but to shuffle things up to where you need to rebuy a large portion of the army you already own and worked hard on to paint and maybe convert to a cool theme .

GW is no longer a game company , but a corporate siphon with a board of people trying to grab every penny out of the gamers pocket , to the point where they don't even want there distributors to make a decent dollar ! ( they used to be a game company remember the good ol days 12 years ago when games day was fun and cool , and offered kick backs to the gamers ) .

But as long as the people keep on paying there crazy prices , they have no reason to change . Hell if you can make grilled cheese sandwiches that sold for $100 each I bet your ass would be in the kitchen all day !

Wyrd has become my favorite game , why ? , there a gaming company run by gamers , and they are giving us a great product at a fair price , with the best release schedule I have ever seen . And the rules are great and are under a steady base of improvement , and there fluff touches my favorite themes and settings in fantasy .

[Alphawog]

The two Games Days I've been to were a blast. The first one I was introduced to Mordheim(thanks to a big sale), and the second I spent playing Mordheim and having a blast. Of course this was years ago so YMMV.

[Ratty]

My last couple of Games Days I ran games at, I got a chance to wander round, I was getting bored after 30mins.. In the old days they used to show lots of interesting new stuff. I went looking for new Skaven and they had 2 or 3 models that had sneaked through as they were converted and painted by John Blanche. this was a couple of months before the release.

[ThePandaDirector]

Well this has taken off. I've even been tempted to attack you once more through the medium of the written word (mwa ha ha.. )

Ok, so first I wasn't implying prices be fixed but whether it would be possible for miniature companies to have a relationship similar to game companies and keep each other in check i.e. stimulate competetive marketing and pricing.

I have also noticed magicpockets that many businesses are backwards in terms of marketing and don't fully understand how best to locate and engage possible long term customers (relating to the many points on loyalties).

Catching People's Eye/s

Now though I agree with many statements about GW and its strengths, do you think the cost of maintaining a highstreet presence will be a thorn in its side? I mention this because of issues of dying highstreets and people more likely to buy online. Do these issues affect GW/the industry or does the interactive and visual aspects of the hobby make them one of the stronger highstreet presences (they certainly stand out). Now I don't know much about Wyrd's henchmen program beyond demoing, but what non-GW obstacles do they face? Can they access a wider audience base/demographic online and guide them to a well connected network of stores that have demo crews. The only issue there is do you put all games in one store or try and copy GWs store policy, likely at greater expense.

Building small Selling Big

Are games developers damaged because their product is on a shelf next to their competition, are potential box office hits ruined because another film was being shown at the same time? I don't really follow much advertising, I have bought more DVDs that I had never heard of even at the time of buying them, I just picked it up, looked at it and bough it. Now that's not normal, but its the same thing to go online see a picture of a model and just buy it (I do that too). Now while films have trailers, we have demo games, rules PDFs etc. There are more magaizines and popular media that highlight films, but then we have a customer base that sells without contract. Now this seems to throw companies like Wyrd in with the makers of Paranormal Activity, relying on popular reaction and social networking to sell their product big. But then there is more a miniature company can do, it can sell to a whole range of mediums - painters, modellers, avid readers, people who like boardgames, geeks, nerds, young imaginative people, loads of different people with different tastes can be united by a game that simply a joy to see, hear and speak about (considering the average summer-time game room smell is less a selling point).

A little story

Here's a story about my lost GW. After years of buying loads and loads of models, playing 40K but generally breaking my minis and not painting them - because I was an unguided youth with too much money - a GW eventually opened in my home town. I went there the 1st day and - I'm embaressed to say - pretty much every single day afterwards. I had never liked GW stores before, I found the staff intimidating and too loud and not funny. But a staff member gave me and my friend (who eventually "grew out" of the hobby) a fantasy demo. I loved it, I played as Chaos and guess what over the summer (the Storm of Chaos campaign) I built up a 10,000pts Chaos army that I loved. It was horribly painted and I still broke them, but they had a story. The shop made up rules to allow the generals to progress and gain skills. My Chaos Lord was terrible, but my Champion proved amazing so even though I had written this story about my Lord I just added in a completle natural, fluid expansion to it where he was usurped and the rise of Akhmaar or whatever his name was began. Now that shop was full to the brim over that summer to points were you couldn't move, and it wasn't that small a shop. There were so many different people, age groups, some played historical miniatures and old fantasy games, but everyone loved GW and while there were lots of kids eager to throw their money at the cool new releases the staff members advocated the hard tell not the hard sell. They would genuinely tell the parents what was actually the best steps for Little Timmy to build his SM army and learn the game. One staff member taught me how to paint, another to model, one was great to game while the amazing manager (an Englishman in a Scottish store) taught me about probability and the deeper mechanics of the games. It was wonderful and I literally grew up in that shop and am who I am because of those champions of the hobby.

But you can't forget this is all said in past tense. The manager left the company and we got a real David Brent (don't know the guy in the American Office) as a replacement who was terrible at leadership and communications. He left and we literally went through about a dozen managers in less than a year - trainees who stayed for a week, even a special guy who was supposed to be some kind of shop doctor to kick us into shape. None of them stayed long and they didn't care for the community and eventually GW gave up on the shop that had once provided them amazing profits (got in some special list). We had no manager, subjugated to GW Carlisle accross the border (a hard pill to swallow, since we had a rivarly with them), who just gave us their unwanted junk. The shop inevitably closed before the Medusa V campaign and the hobby died pretty much completely. One staff member jumped ship, left us behind and is now manager of Carlisle (but his personality has changed dramatically) while my favourite, the one who was like a father to me (parent's are divorced) is now working in a charity warehouse with a newborn baby to take care of. Think of these two staff members as companies and you'll see how each did right and wrong, but the winners and losers are beyond just them.

My First Wyrd

So yes, I've been on a 6yr hiatus perhaps for a reason, not out of spite for GW, but because I had no support, no group I could engage with and a place to practice my hobby. It wasn't until I was directed to Wyrd after searching for a 40K proxy (a child miniature to represent a rogue psyker i.e. Candy) that I discovered Wyrd and after reading the rave reviews, took the plunge and was finally sold by the quality fo the 1st rulebook. Since then I have gotten back into the hobby (only recently into painting), with Wyrd's reputation and product quality ultimately buying my service, which will be spread to other games too. And yes I have a personal connection to Wyrd, while here I have been taught about modelling, painting and gaming in a way reminiscent of those glory days at GW. Have I seen the hard tell as opposed to the hard sell? It's hard to say with many gamers seeming to know what they want without Wyrd needing to do a lot to push them. If this changes, which it will if Wyrd becomes peoples' first miniature game then they will be required to possibly provide more info (through the Henchmen) that may or may not favour faction building or "gotta-catch-em-all" symdrome.

Obstacles

Now that's a rare - to my knowledge - story of how one may discover the hobby and expand, but how can you provide accessability without diluting your profit margins accross the board. Alphawog raised a good point I had never noticed, about the price of Wyrds books. As Wyrd expands the price for having all the books - with valuable rules, story, etc - will cost as much as an entire faction. This doesn't seem friendly, but then surely free rules and the models' rules in the box/clamshell mean that these are thankfully optional. Would it be better for Wyrd to give new gamers a clearer picture/explaination of each of their major products, really engage visually on what Malifaux is, what the characters/factions are, the core game mechanic (cheat fate) and finally a clear and more intuitive break down of products and organised info on them. For example, if I want to collect one crew A LOT and I find that there aren't any stories and I can't find their cool artwork I've heard so much about and I've been told there are these things called tacticas on the forum, but I can't find them and and and and... I'd have probably given up by then if I didn't already have a good background with games. Wyrd are great at supporting those in the know, but perhaps relies too much on these people effctively hooking people in. As I said before, I make my own decisions, if I wasn't collectig some minature ranges for painting I probably wouldn't buy them due to the chance of getting a game in (that is the game's fault for not putting up a non-GW neon sign). I also get into games like Wyrd because I like it for my own reasons and then those reasons change with time and knowledge, no one can tell me what to do otherwise I will likely walk away or collect privately (still slightly damaging due to missed opportunity).

LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE. My posts were getting smaller, and then THIS!

I think my relation to my old GW is something of a parable about the principles of a miniature business and the dangers within.

Do any of you know anyone - not a child - who has taken up the hobby, any hobby? what attracted them to it? What stood in their way and who/what was in place to help them invest?

I'll stop now..

Edited May 21, 2011 by ThePandaDirector

[Melvazord]

GW got me into the hobby (with Space Crusade, a game I still occasionally play 21 years later) and I'm willing to bet it got at least 70-80% of the forum into it.

The fact is however they have changed so much that it actually drove me out of the hobby for a couple of years.

Privateer Press brought me back then almost drove me out again in less than a year. They released too much too quickly and far too many people bought the next uber-model just to win. I hated that. No one was playing for fun, they just wanted to win. I believe the whole "Page 5" macho BS was to blame for this.

I stayed in however because I found Hasslefree miniatures and painted rather than gamed for a few years. See the attitude with HF brought me back from the brink of quitting altogether. They were friendly and it was all about having FUN, not fleecing people or having them buy another OP machine-o-death just to win one more game.

I'm not saying that GW or PP are evil and that HF are the good guys in all this, at the end of the day they're all out to make money.

The fact is however that GW ARE fleecing people:

25 plastic British Infantry from Warlord cost £18. 0.72p Per mini.

10 plastic imperial guard cost £13.95 from the same store. Thats £1.40 per mini.

Same size of mini, same quality of sculpt, both on sprues with extra gear but the IG cost twice as much.

And PP HAVE released far too many gubbins. Warmachine is far more fun playing just the basic box sets but good luck getting that from anyone.

Wargames have to be more than about money and winning. I haven't played Wyrd yet but it seems more in the mode that I want to get back to. A game that's fun to play and doesn't need a million minis to play with. I'm glad of the way wargaming is going recently what with games like Wyrd and 1938:VBCW. Inovation, imagination and friendly competition.

/essay