Rules manual PDF

[PlasticBoy]

I just dont think its half as bad as people are saying. Its a free teaser product. You can use it but its designed so you want the real product.

I agree in part. It is a free product, though not really meant as a teaser. The rules manual was made to reduce the confusion of the game, it fixed, coagulated, merged, and explained that various errata and faq that were floating around.

In that I think this is a great product. The book is very nice. The pdf is not so much. If offered a free pdf I can get by without story/artwork/details, all I really wanted was rules, a consolidation of the changes in the game rules. So the pdf does that.

The problem with the pdf, in my opinion and I think that of many expressed here, is not the content it is with the quality. A pdf that is bulky, loads slowly, and filled with unnecessary bits and pieces is frankly just a job done poorly. A great recovery would be the printed Rules Manual is exactly how it is, and the pdf is simply a stripped down almost just text version of that. There needn't be background art, 'confidential' fake stamped on top of everything. or any art. Just a bit of formatted text to clearly explain the rules and be small enough to load easily on portable devices. Basically it should be a reference for use in game, which currently this pdf does not do well.

[LoboStele]

Not ideal if you don't have a computer...which isn't or shouldn't be a requirement to play the game.

And a computer ISN'T a requirement to play the game. The rule book is, whether that's Book 1 or the Rules Manual. Honestly, we played an entire League in the fall with nearly 20 participants, using the Book 1 rules and whatever flawed rulings/errata were available at the time....and we had an absolutely friggin' blast! So maybe "your mileage may vary" applies here. But we all felt that, yes, some rules changes could be made and things could be better, but that the initial version of the game was not "OMGWTFBBQ BROKEN!"

If you won't have a computer/laptop handy to play the game, then buy the $15 rules manual. Or, sit at home at the computer, read through the rules to get a basic understanding, and then just play with only the cards when you're at the LGS. Then, don't worry if you screw up a few rules here and there. The point is to have fun. Then later go back and re-read the PDF to see what you did wrong, or decide if you'd rather have the hardcopy RM in your hands the next time you play.

As tadaka pointed out, it's supposed to be a teaser. Just to whet the appetite of people so they'll jump into the game. I think the problem all along has been that EXISTING players expected the PDF to the be-all-end-all for the rules, when Wyrd said from the get-go that it wasn't going to be that. It is designed for NEW players. The hope is that EXISTING players will either buy the relatively cheap RM, or borrow one from a friend. Heck, check with your local Henchmen. They may have extra ones for free, if it's that much of an issue.

And for the record, Math, I didn't feel like tadaka's posts had any sort of 'tone' to them at all. So, remember to be careful when reading posts online, as 'tone' is conveyed very poorly in written text. It's tough, in discussions like this, because we all get a little heated sometimes, but it's good to remember to always assume that the other person is NOT using a 'tone' or such.

[LoboStele]

The problem with the pdf, in my opinion and I think that of many expressed here, is not the content it is with the quality. A pdf that is bulky, loads slowly, and filled with unnecessary bits and pieces is frankly just a job done poorly. A great recovery would be the printed Rules Manual is exactly how it is, and the pdf is simply a stripped down almost just text version of that. There needn't be background art, 'confidential' fake stamped on top of everything. or any art. Just a bit of formatted text to clearly explain the rules and be small enough to load easily on portable devices. Basically it should be a reference for use in game, which currently this pdf does not do well.

This has been stated elsewhere, but the primary problem with doing it this way is that then you would essentially have two different versions of the Rules Manual floating around, with different page numbers, and layouts. So, when people referencing things in the RM, whether on the forums, or in chatting, or whatever, it could become very confusing if people are talking about a particular page number, but when you look it up in your PDF, it's a different topic than the conversation. I think this is a VERY important reason for the RM and the PDF to be matching in the way that they currently are.

[PlasticBoy]

I can understand that. Though it wouldn't really be hard to keep the same page numbers. Basically if the graphics were cut down, and instead of stamp images just leave an empty space. Anyway, its a minor issue. One that I am fixing for myself with my own rules pdf in the works.

[Buhallin]

I can understand that. Though it wouldn't really be hard to keep the same page numbers. Basically if the graphics were cut down, and instead of stamp images just leave an empty space. Anyway, its a minor issue. One that I am fixing for myself with my own rules pdf in the works.

I'm relatively certain that if they did this people would be complaining about how it took them 60 pages to print it, and it's so hard to read through all that empty space that serves no purpose, and why couldn't they have just cut it all out?

The sad reality is that some people seem to have expectations that Wyrd simply isn't going to meet. They essentially feel, for whatever reason, that Wyrd should hand them the full, complete, updated rules for free. They aren't going to do that.

The core question is whether or not they've done enough. People bash them because the v2 card redemption was too short and didn't cover every card in existence, despite it still being far more than most minis companies do. They bash them because the PDF is too clunky and expensive to print, or you can't use it without a computer (Who'da thunk?)

The baseline truth is that this is all personal. The people objecting to needing a new $15 book laud a company that reprints $200 worth of books and provides no useful shorthand reference at all. The ones bashing Wyrd's need for errata hold up a company that produced an unstable system and dropped it chasing the D20 craze (and printed new books in the process).

I honestly don't feel like I'm defending Wyrd. I'm more just shaking my head at the unrealistic expectations. The only other tabletop game I've played that had cards for reference was Warmachine, and when they updated it was in packs that you had to buy. WotC has literally gone to Spelljacked with the new Gamma World. And people are upset because Wyrd's replacement program only ran for 3 months and covered a mere 90% of the cards out there with free replacements? <shrug> Nobody should have to "defend" Wyrd from that.

[Dark Alleycat]

Yes,I am going to defend Wyrd,because I feel it has more then earned it. This game company,has listened to its players far more then any other game company I have ever encountered. They had a update on the rules,and rather then making people buy the new ones as..just about every other game company would have,instead replaced them,at THEIR OWN EXPENSE,simply because they wanted to have everyone on the same page for rules. Picture what would have happened if someone had suggested to Games Workshop that they replace the prior edition's basebook with the new edition when they switched to 5th. Can you imagine them ever doing something like that?They respond to people finding loopholes and problems,and they publish errata on the site to cover it.

As for the rule book PDF. It is a free version,and as such,people shouldn't expect everything thats in the paperback version. Almost all the important stuff is there however,other then some of the Diagrams explaining things. And honestly I love the "extra" bits that the pdf has. I laughed my ass off at it. Rather then just leaving it blank like alot of other companies would have,they made it amusing.

So Well done Wyrd...keep up the good work.

[PlasticBoy]

I don't think there is any need to defend Wyrd. I don't think they didn't deliver on what they said they would; they didn't break a promise or anything. I simply wish the pdf had better use as a reference instead of what it is.

[anathema]

UK

The baseline truth is that this is all personal. The people objecting to needing a new $15 book laud a company that reprints $200 worth of books and provides no useful shorthand reference at all.

Spectacular cherry picking there. I don't approve all of their practices, but the rulebook redemption was an example of great customer service whether you like it or not. And the fact remains that none if their books are officially obsolete. Whether they're competitive is a different issue but I assure you that ostfront pioneers are miles better than in eastern front. BF also give web rulings and have errata docs. they are not perfect and I have my criticisms of them, but none of this invalidates legitimate criticism of Wyrd no matter how to try to distract it.

Saying everyone else is bad doesn't mean you shouldn't hope for better.

FoW is also not a cheap game to get into. Malifaux has it as a selling point. I appreciate that rules get update periodically. This is usually after 5-6 years in most systems. Anything sooner than that and I believe things like a pdf should be produced. If Wyrd make the pdf usable I could consider them pre-eminent amongst gaming companies instead of merely good.

Edited April 22, 2011 by anathema

[Buhallin]

Saying everyone else is bad doesn't mean you shouldn't hope for better.

But that concept of "better" needs to be tempered by the reality of the industry you're talking about. Would it be "better" for the customer if every game company out there provided their rules sets as free online resources, with handy downloadable references and apps for iPhones, iPads, Android, Kindle, and Nook that gave you army builders, rules, and references all in one nifty tool that allowed us to paint with minis that cost $1 each and came either bare metal or prepainted by the hands of Wyrd's studio painters, as you preferred?

Sure. Is it reasonable? Not so much. And that's the point Wyrd's "defenders" are making - not that it's not possible to be better, but that the accusations being leveled at them are either completely unrealistic or simply nitpicky. Are there some simple things they might improve, like flattening the PDF? Sure. But that such a stink was raised over the v2 cards - and people continue to complain about it - astounds me.

As for the cherrypicking, I was only responding to the specific point you brought up... Which means that one of us probably was, indeed, doing that Bashing Wyrd because players want to know everything in the game (which will cost them an extra $35 book) and then holding up another system where a similar effort will cost you around $300+ in books is not a consistent argument. Did Battlefront do better than Wyrd that one time? Sure. But I'm pretty sure they were also a much larger company at the time. Oh, and those nifty small FoW rulebooks that are so handy compared to the $50 monstrosity? You can't buy them for $15... You actually can't buy them at all outside of a starter set that includes a lot of other stuff.

So the long and short of it is that a lot of people think you're being incredibly unfair in your criticism, no matter how much you want it to be about Wyrd rather than your own expectations.

[tadaka]

And for the record, Math, I didn't feel like tadaka's posts had any sort of 'tone' to them at all. So, remember to be careful when reading posts online, as 'tone' is conveyed very poorly in written text. It's tough, in discussions like this, because we all get a little heated sometimes, but it's good to remember to always assume that the other person is NOT using a 'tone' or such.

I had no intended tone to any one. I have no issue with any one or even there views. I am just tossing in my 2 cents on the issue. I would like to see this go away as it comes up over and over. I honestly think if wyrd thought they could just give you the rules as you want them they would. I remember Wyrd posted in one of the closed threads stores will not carry a product line if players don't have to get the rules as a physical product.

Wyrd has proven to me when players voice a major issue they will listen. They may not be able to do any thing about it but they listen. At this point players have told wyrd they had an issue with it. Wyrd knows players are not 100% happy. If they can do more they will if they cant we just have to live with the fact or move on to a product that makes you happy.

[Amarel]

Well this is a funny old thread - it seems to have moved from constructive criticism of the PDF to very much a feeling of people attempting to create an 'us and them' mentality against posters who have the odd gripe.

Personally I'm a pretty big fan of Malifaux and own a lot of stuff for it. I also think Wyrd are doing an exceptional job. However I think it's fair to say that the PDF doesn't serve purpose I'd like it to (whether that's by design or not doesn't matter so much) and I don't really feel like forking out on another rules manual (cheap as it might be) when I've already bought two rules books over the course of two years and spent a chunk of time and money on printing out a goodly amount of errata (I'd rather buy some new figs, instead, tbh).

For the record, I'd really like the PDF to be a living document that you only had to pay for once and for it to be largely text based (like the Field Test rules doc for Warmachine, which gets more far more use from me than the actual printed rulebook does).

[Pink Horror]

My main point is that the V2 cards and the Rules Manual are a symptom of a lack of robustness in design. As long as we're mentioning other games, I quit Warmachine as its rules spiraled out of control with each new edition (though I should give the second version a shot). I'm just one guy on the Internet, and I doubt anyone will pay attention, but I want to make sure that point is made. Like you guys have pointed out, no miniature companies have been perfect about correcting these sorts of flaws. But other company's rules problems rarely turn into infinite loops, either. I don't have any major gripe about what Wyrd is doing now. I just hope these chances for mistakes are minimized in the future.

[anathema]

I think there's a few things we can all agree on:

V2 card redemption and pdfs were a great example of customer service.

Having rules marshals making forum rulings is great.

Including the whole game in book 1 made it easy to get into another book 2 expansion grew the game nicely.

The rules manual is a great reference at the table and handy for new players.

The only thing people don't agree on is the pdf. Some think its fine as is and that people should shell out for the manual if they want the news rules. Wyrd ate doing their best and were not entitled to free rules.

Other like myself think it should be made usable on phones etc and printable for use as a big errata. Much like the excellent v2 cards pdf. After all, we've already bought the rules once.

Fair summary? I don't think anyone is saying they don't like or enjoy the game.

And Bulhallin, I believe it more than reasonable to want a usable pdf now they've actually released one. Would it take that much effort to strip it and make it usable? Tech types may know more but I doubt its more than a few hours work and if I could do it myself I would.

[Math Mathonwy]

And for the record, Math, I didn't feel like tadaka's posts had any sort of 'tone' to them at all. So, remember to be careful when reading posts online, as 'tone' is conveyed very poorly in written text. It's tough, in discussions like this, because we all get a little heated sometimes, but it's good to remember to always assume that the other person is NOT using a 'tone' or such.

Remember to be careful in reading posts as I never said anything about tadaka's tone. There's this multiquote function that makes it easy to quote several people in a single message, you know .

The tone comment was aimed at magicpockets who compared criticizing the PDF to calling someone's child ugly or stupid which is escalating the thing to ludicrousness. And I say that as someone who makes a living writing stuff and then having others mercilessly try to find faults in it.

The sad reality is that some people seem to have expectations that Wyrd simply isn't going to meet. They essentially feel, for whatever reason, that Wyrd should hand them the full, complete, updated rules for free. They aren't going to do that.

That might be a sad reality, but I'm not convinced that anyone on this thread has suggested such. Or if you'd like to quote someone asking for that, I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong.

The core question is whether or not they've done enough.

Huh? That's not a core question at all and is, all in all, a very silly metric.

They bash them because the PDF is too clunky and expensive to print, or you can't use it without a computer (Who'da thunk?)

Eh, that's a bit low as it's obvious twisting of words. It was extremely clear that the "without a computer" meant without a desktop computer as in the PDF doesn't work in portable devices.

The baseline truth is that this is all personal.

Though this kinda explains your previous comments, it's a really weird take on things. This isn't personal to me and it shouldn't be to you.

The people objecting to needing a new $15 book laud a company that reprints $200 worth of books and provides no useful shorthand reference at all.

The word 'people' is plural, not singular. I'm not sure why you're trying to paint all the critics with the same brush and trying to construct some kinda heavy-handed "us vs them"-mentality when it's not needed. I also feel that it's very unconstructive. If you have a response to someone's singular comment, respond to that person as opposed to talking vaguely about "people".

I honestly don't feel like I'm defending Wyrd. I'm more just shaking my head at the unrealistic expectations.

You feel that a flattened PDF that works on an iPad is an unrealistic expectation?

Honestly, I think you should take a deep breath, not take this discussion as a slight aimed at your person and all in all pay more attention to what people are saying instead of exaggerating it into something and then railing against that.

I had no intended tone to any one. I have no issue with any one or even there views.

LoboStele misread my post - no one mentioned anything about your tone.

And Bulhallin, I believe it more than reasonable to want a usable pdf now they've actually released one. Would it take that much effort to strip it and make it usable? Tech types may know more but I doubt its more than a few hours work and if I could do it myself I would.

I know a fair bit about electronic publishing and yeah, it would be very simple. Flattening the PDF to make it much faster and smaller would take less than a minute. Stripping the background, as it's in its own layer, would also take only a couple of minutes.

[Buhallin]

After all, we've already bought the rules once.

And this seems to go to the core of it.

Somehow, people seem to have gotten it into their head that a rulebook purchase is like a lifetime software license, with full support guaranteed and free upgrades for life. I'm not entirely sure where this came from, since I don't know anyone else in the gaming industry that does it.

Rulebooks come out. We buy them. Rules change and adapt over time, with tweaks and fixes. Companies put those on their web site. At some point they produce an updated version of the rules, with a new book that we buy all over again. I can hear Elton John singing in the background, because as gamers this is our circle of life.

Did Wyrd do it a little sooner than most? Yeah, but they also did it cheaper, and chose to apply everything they'd learned in the last two years to make a product that is much more friendly and usable - honestly, the improvements to ease of use for the rules are worth the price all by themselves. So we got a "big buy turnover" release, rather than the "minor and free" release.

If it's not worth it to you, don't buy it - that's your call. But essentially asking Wyrd never to reprint or reproduce or rewrite their rules in any form you might have to pay for because you've already done it once is, while a novel idea. just not a realistic expectation for this industry.

[Buhallin]

This isn't personal to me and it shouldn't be to you.

You chose the wrong definition of 'personal'. My meaning was that the evaluation of whether or not Wyrd has met their obligations to the customer is a personal one.

The word 'people' is plural, not singular. I'm not sure why you're trying to paint all the critics with the same brush and trying to construct some kinda heavy-handed "us vs them"-mentality when it's not needed.

The specific example was relative to anathema, but yes, there have been multiple people throughout these discussions who have cited examples of companies producing very expensive new books as fine, while bashing Wyrd for a $15 new book because they didn't give it to them for free.

You feel that a flattened PDF that works on an iPad is an unrealistic expectation?

Eric has stated that many distributors and stores are uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, towards methods of electronic rules distribution that take books off the shelves. I take him at his word on that, and if it is the case then yes - your expectation may very well be unrealistic. At the very least, he's stated that the intention with the PDF was never to provide a fully capable primary rules source. He's explained why they made that decision. What more do you actually want?

[Pink Horror]

Eric has stated that many distributors and stores are uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, towards methods of electronic rules distribution that take books off the shelves. I take him at his word on that, and if it is the case then yes - your expectation may very well be unrealistic. At the very least, he's stated that the intention with the PDF was never to provide a fully capable primary rules source. He's explained why they made that decision. What more do you actually want?

It is somewhat hard to believe that the difference between store acceptable and store rejection of the product would be based upon whether a PDF file available online is flattened.

[tadaka]

I can see store owners not wanting this in PDF form for full rules. We have a local store that will not allow people to use computers after a number of players were using digital war hammer codex.

[Math Mathonwy]

You chose the wrong definition of 'personal'. My meaning was that the evaluation of whether or not Wyrd has met their obligations to the customer is a personal one.

Ah, fair enough, mea culpa.

Eric has stated that many distributors and stores are uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, towards methods of electronic rules distribution that take books off the shelves. I take him at his word on that, and if it is the case then yes - your expectation may very well be unrealistic. At the very least, he's stated that the intention with the PDF was never to provide a fully capable primary rules source. He's explained why they made that decision. What more do you actually want?

I somehow doubt that flattening can be the deciding factor there but if someone from Wyrd comes and says that that is why the PDF is how it is, then I concede my point and stop mentioning the free PDF when promoing (as currently it, anecdotally, breeds bad blood as opposed to positive PR when these prospective players see it for themselves).

[anathema]

Noone is 'bashing' Wyrd. That is ridiculous hyperbole. A rulebook has a shelf life, everyone knows this. What the company does about this is what matters. Other companies change versions every 5-6 years. Not 2. This is not standard and looks bad without player support.

Wyrd told us they'd release a pdf, making it sound like a great resource for new players and a reward for current players who didn't want to buy another rulebook so soon. Excellent customer service. Until the pdf doesn't do what its supposed to.

If they hadn't release the pdf, releasing what is a consolidated errata for sale 2 years after the game starts doesn't bode well for new entrants. As it is they have the chance to stand out in the market by supporting their early adopters with a usable basic update while retaining the extra content for the book. Most people would buy the book anyway for the extras, everybody is happy.

[Amarel]

And this seems to go to the core of it.

Somehow, people seem to have gotten it into their head that a rulebook purchase is like a lifetime software license, with full support guaranteed and free upgrades for life. I'm not entirely sure where this came from, since I don't know anyone else in the gaming industry that does it.

And again you're simply making stuff up. No-one, no-one, has suggested this at all. To state again, as simply as I can, the issue is that the PDF does not provide the function that many people expected it to (most obviously due to the fact that it can neither be printed nor carried to a venue on a mobile device).

To get to your point, let's not forget that, generally, when a company releases a new rulebook it is because there is a need to make a wholesale change to the basic rule set. However, the recently released rules manual is essentially a comprehensive errata that works in conjunction with the existing rulebooks which are both still 'in date'.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Amarel
Grammar and being nicer.

[Ciaran]

I somehow doubt that flattening can be the deciding factor there but if someone from Wyrd comes and says that that is why the PDF is how it is, then I concede my point and stop mentioning the free PDF when promoing (as currently it, anecdotally, breeds bad blood as opposed to positive PR when these prospective players see it for themselves).

The way Wyrd made it sound is they were unwilling to put the full rules online. The logic behind this is that players that download the rules online for free will often buy their models online at discount, rather than supporting the gaming stores they will go to play the game out. I work in a game store on the weekends, and the owner there likely wouldn't support the game at all if its full rules were online, for that very reason. No successful store owner that I've dealt with would, more than likely. The business is hard enough without pushing people towards the web for all of their needs for any particular games.

I personally would be all for a flattened version of the pdf to be used to show the basics of the rules.

When I demo the game I mention the pdf, and let them know it's not complete, that it's a taste of the rules. I also point out that that's how I recall it being presented when it was announced to the community a few months ago.

I see your concern on the new player end. I can see how someone would feel as though they were being lied to, if it's presented in a way that says the pdf is everything they'll need, rather than a super basic introduction. A super basic intro that is really stylishly done....

Anyway, that's just another two cents...

[Pink Horror]

I can see store owners not wanting this in PDF form for full rules. We have a local store that will not allow people to use computers after a number of players were using digital war hammer codex.

Yes, I could see that. But that doesn't really affect what I said - disbelief that the owner would decide one way or the other, based upon whether a particular file is stored flat or not.

Also, as you mentioned, some people bring computers into stores to play other games with pirated rulebooks. There is certainly a high positive correlation between how easy it is to find a particular game's rulebook online, and how much that game sells in stores (of course it's the popularity that drives people to pirate stuff and put it online, not the pirates that drive the popularity). So this whole issue boils down to paranoia.

Once Malifaux is popular enough, all the rulebooks will be online the week they come out, whether Wyrd and the local game stores like it or not.

When I demo the game I mention the pdf, and let them know it's not complete, that it's a taste of the rules. I also point out that that's how I recall it being presented when it was announced to the community a few months ago.

This is how I recall it was presented... actually, no, I don't have to recall, because it is still on this website:

We told you about the important rules updates that occurred with the Rules Manual, and many of you have seen this book at your LGS and used it to play even more Malifaux games. To go along with these updates, we want to ensure that all Malifaux players have access to the official rules so that you can avoid disputes in your gaming groups and just have more fun. So we're providing a PDF download of the Rules Manual. Some core items have been removed. To get all the information, you'll still need to buy the book. But if you're just looking for all the information, updates, errata, and FAQ in one file, this PDF will help.

According to the news page, this PDF exists so we could have "all the information, updates, errata, and FAQ in one file", apart from some "core items", whatever those are. It doesn't mention being a taste for new players. That was made up as an excuse for its existence, after the release.

[Hansel]

I can see how someone would feel as though they were being lied to, if it's presented in a way that says the pdf is everything they'll need, rather than a super basic introduction. A super basic intro that is really stylishly done...

I don't understand this argument. It's basically the full book, but in kind of a bad format (layered, BIG pdf). That's not a "super basic intro". It's a poor full book. They're not even close to the same thing.

If Wyrd wants to disable printing, that's totally their prerogative, as well as making the pdf really big and hard to read. In fact, I can see why they would, as a business decision (though it's bound to generate ill will among hardcore forumites). But you can't defend it as a "super basic intro", because it's the whole damn book! That's my only point--I'm out!

[Ciaran]

Wyrd Miniatures, LLC is proud to announce the upcoming release of the Malifaux Rules Manual. This comprehensive play aid will include all the rules, updated with current errata, diagrams and detailed examples of frequently asked questions, as well as all of the encounters for the popular Malifaux skirmish game in an easily referenced compact form (5.5"x 8.5").

This addition to our product line is great for players to keep alongside their rulebooks. The existing rulebooks are still essential to Malifaux as they contain the miniature statistics and story arcs, but the portable size of the new Rules Manual makes it easy for everyone to have the key points in one compact manual for quick reference.

This guide will be available in early 2011 as both a full color printed book which will retail for $15USD, as well as a free PDF, which will have much less content, but will make the core rules accessible to anyone that would like to try out the rules before diving into the rich background of Malifaux.

That was from: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17172&highlight=upcoming+rules+manual dated the second full week of December.

According to the news page, this PDF exists so we could have "all the information, updates, errata, and FAQ in one file", apart from some "core items", whatever those are. It doesn't mention being a taste for new players. That was made up as an excuse for its existence, after the release.

The quote you posted specifically mentions needing the print copy of the Rules Manual, exactly like was announced in December.

To address Hansel's point: It's a redacted copy of the book, that is really big, and hard to use. I agree with that part, I certainly see it as a basic version of the same document.

So... to address the people that actually were asking about it: What I mentioned earlier is how address the issue.