Sliver Chocobo Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Is there a ruling on this somewhere? I did some looking but couldn't find anything, and it seems like one that could have a lot of implications. You can only target legal targets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well, yeah But that doesn't necessarily follow that you can choose another target just because the described one is illegal. You can still only use Serpent Strike against the closest enemy model - if you can't charge it for some reason, you just can't use Serpent Strike. Or, to put it another way, any model other than the nearest enemy isn't a legal target for Serpent Strike, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well, yeah But that doesn't necessarily follow that you can choose another target just because the described one is illegal. You can still only use Serpent Strike against the closest enemy model - if you can't charge it for some reason, you just can't use Serpent Strike. Or, to put it another way, any model other than the nearest enemy isn't a legal target for Serpent Strike, either. I will repeat myself You can only target legal targets I know it's say's it must target the nearest enemy model, but hunting partner overrules this and can only attack it's prey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I know it's say's it must target the nearest enemy model, but hunting partner overrules this and can only attack it's prey Okay... But why? If I have a model that can't attack Undead, would Hunting Partner let me attack an Undead if I selected an appropriate model as my Prey? I understand what you're saying - I just don't see anything to support it (and, to be fair, you really haven't offered any actual rules to support it). Logically, If a model can only attack A, and can only attack B, then if A and B aren't the same it shouldn't be able to attack at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izikial Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 k plain and simple chocobo is correct, the serpent strick rule is to target the closest "legal" target, hunting partner makes they shirkoms pray the only "legal" target and hence it is the one that can becharged. for instance you have three targets, a, b and c, in that order of closeness if b is the shirkoms pray, and cast hunting partner on the rattler a and c basicly dont exist, leaving only b able to be charged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izikial Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 that is difrent becus the modle flat out can atack undead, makign it its pray dosnt stop it being undead, its in the wording. in stad of stating what it cant hit it states what it can, witch is the closest legal, not closest but closest legal so in your example if the rattler was made so it couldnt target undead and an undead dude was the closest he wouldnt be a legal target so he would have to go to the next closest and so on till you finde a non undead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 k plain and simple chocobo is correct, the serpent strick rule is to target the closest "legal" target, hunting partner makes they shirkoms pray the only "legal" target and hence it is the one that can becharged. for instance you have three targets, a, b and c, in that order of closeness if b is the shirkoms pray, and cast hunting partner on the rattler a and c basicly dont exist, leaving only b able to be charged Under that codition yes it won't be able to attack an other model other than it's prey and it won't be able to attack it's prey because it's undead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izikial Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 we may not be able to articulate it corectly, go on the rules forum and ask a marshal may explain it better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I actually asked on the rules forum about the Razorspine charging a Prey with Serpent Strike, and the official answer was in the affirmative. If you do a quick rearch of the rules forums for "Razorspine" and "Prey", you should get the thread you're after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) That would be this one? http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18508&highlight=rattler+prey The one where the only official response is "This is my hunch on it, but don't take it as official?" the serpent strick rule is to target the closest "legal" target, hunting partner makes they shirkoms pray the only "legal" target and hence it is the one that can becharged Actually, that's not what the rule is. "This model Charges the closest enemy model." That's all it says. It tells you exactly what to do - Charge the nearest enemy model. There's absolutely nothing about picking the nearest "legal" target (which is a redundant statement anyway, because obviously you cannot pick an illegal target). To do what you're thinking it would it might say "Choose the nearest enemy target which can be charged, and charge it" Edit: Realized I didn't finish my thought... If an ability tells you to do something you could not do, then you can't do it. So it tells you to charge the nearest enemy, which isn't a valid target because it's not the Prey, so that's that. I did find this: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17514&highlight=nearest+target Which includes this high point: Legally is the key word here. Since the Rattler must target the closest model the Dreamer is the only legal target for its Charge. Shadowy Form wouldn't kick in because of that. You don't get to just keep moving on to the next closest target until you get to one you can hit. The only legal target for Serpent Strike is the nearest enemy model - if Shadowy Form can't make you hit a different target with it, there's no reason to think that Hunting Partner would either. Edited May 10, 2011 by Buhallin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izikial Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 i cant try any more if you cant see it then so be it, i feal like you dont apriciate the fact that we are trying to explain and your just set in you minde set sry cant help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 i cant try any more if you cant see it then so be it, i feal like you dont apriciate the fact that we are trying to explain and your just set in you minde set sry cant help Actual I'm going to do a 180 I had a closer look at hunting partener it stats than it can't Attack any other model than it's prey, serpent strike isn't an attack. So it could use serpent strike on somthing other than it's prey, but it wouldn't be able to make the strike against it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 i cant try any more if you cant see it then so be it, i feal like you dont apriciate the fact that we are trying to explain and your just set in you minde set sry cant help I love it when we get to this point Here's my point, boiled down: The only legal target for Serpent Strike is the nearest enemy model. Nobody has really offered any rules that would change that. I've dug through the rules forum, and I can't find anything official that would change that. On the other hand, we have a solid case where Keltheos, the Grand Poobah of Rules Marshals, has said that abilities cannot force the Rattler to pick a different target other than the closest. If Shadowy Form cannot force the Rattler to hit a target other than the closest, why would Hunting Partner do so? Everyone seems to love the idea that the closest isn't a legal target if the Prey is farther away - which is absolutely correct. But as Keltheos says, anything which isn't the closest isn't a legal target either. So the Prey isn't a legal target, because it's not the closest. So you can't Serpent Strike the Prey because it's not the closest, and you can't Serpent Strike the closest because it's not the Prey. There's nothing wrong with two highly-restrictive targeting limits conflicting and leaving the model with no valid targets. Now, as to the general... I'm arguing this point from my understanding of logic, the rules, and even set theory (null set FTW!) I'm doing so in good faith. I've asked repeatedly WHY you can override the "closest target" part of Serpent Strike, and really gotten nothing beyond "Because you can." Through that, I've stayed away from anything as insulting as the above. Please, try and show the same courtesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Actual I'm going to do a 180 I had a closer look at hunting partener it stats than it can't Attack any other model than it's prey, serpent strike isn't an attack. So it could use serpent strike on somthing other than it's prey, but it wouldn't be able to make the strike against it I actually considered this... It doesn't explicitly list Charge as one of the definitions of Attack, but I think the strike being part of the charge puts it in that category. You could potentially make a very technical argument that it would play like this, but I doubt it would be well-received Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I actually considered this... It doesn't explicitly list Charge as one of the definitions of Attack, but I think the strike being part of the charge puts it in that category. You could potentially make a very technical argument that it would play like this, but I doubt it would be well-received Even if a charge is an attack, serpent strike let's the make a charge, it in it's self is not a charge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Even if a charge is an attack, serpent strike let's the make a charge, it in it's self is not a charge True, but not really relevant. Serpent Strike enables you to take the Charge action for free, but it's still a Charge, subject to all the limitations and restrictions that would normally apply. If at any point you cannot complete an effect as instructed, then the effect fizzles. So I suppose you COULD declare Serpent Strike and then find out that the nearest enemy wasn't a legal target for the charge, and the action would fail at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 This needs to move to the rules forum. I'll post my response on the thread Buhallin linked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 True enough. Sorry for hijacking your diary, Rathnard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) I'm wondering if anyone's thought of this/tried it out: 35ss Marcus 9ss+1ss | Hamelin the Vanilla (to unlock Nix) 7ss*+1ss | Nix the Bull Terrier (to give all of your models significant) 16ss | x8 Malifaux Raptors (the crux of the crew) 1ss | Jackolope (because he's that awesome) Increase the number of raptors incrementally depending on how many points you have. The result? 12 significant models (not bad for out-activating you opponent), 8 of which have an 10/10 wk/cg and flight! Marcus will never have a problem with reconnitier again! Additionally, a raptor-invoked beasted Nix and Hamelin aren't a bad thing to have either, especially with Marcus' howl. If you have a few more points, toss in Myranda (and/or spam the raptors more!) Now is it just me, or does this sound amazingly fun to play? *I don't have the rulebook with me. Is he a 7-cost? Edited May 13, 2011 by brdparker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 I'm wondering if anyone's thought of this/tried it out: 35ss Marcus 9ss+1ss | Hamelin the Vanilla (to unlock Nix) 7ss*+1ss | Nix the Bull Terrier (to give all of your models significant) 16ss | x8 Malifaux Raptors (the crux of the crew) 1ss | Jackolope (because he's that awesome) Increase the number of raptors incrementally depending on how many points you have. The result? 12 significant models (not bad for out-activating you opponent), 8 of which have an 10/10 wk/cg and flight! Marcus will never have a problem with reconnitier again! Additionally, a raptor-invoked beasted Nix and Hamelin aren't a bad thing to have either, especially with Marcus' howl. If you have a few more points, toss in Myranda (and/or spam the raptors more!) Now is it just me, or does this sound amazingly fun to play? *I don't have the rulebook with me. Is he a 7-cost? I don't think you can take Nix in this list - he isn't a beast or a mercenary (unless his card is different to the rulebook). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Oh, that's somewhat depressing. Oh well. Thanks for pointing that out though before I bought the model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izikial Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 i think he can be hired, i have no rules to back this up, only my fealing, but he says he can only be hired by crews containing one of the hamlins, the only crews that can hire the vanilla hamlin hire him as a merc, so that means no crew could get nix by haveing vanilla hamlin, so why would they include vanilla hamlin in the rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 i think he can be hired, i have no rules to back this up, only my fealing, but he says he can only be hired by crews containing one of the hamlins, the only crews that can hire the vanilla hamlin hire him as a merc, so that means no crew could get nix by haveing vanilla hamlin, so why would they include vanilla hamlin in the rule It is a bit odd, but those are the rules I am affraid. There are some crews that can take both (Kirai for example, as she can hire any spirit)... and who knows what is going to come in book 3 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Vanilla Hamelin comes with Nix on his base and has a "Bull Terrier" ranged attack. It'd be rather weird, if he could have his pet both alive and undead at the same time, at least as far as the fluff goes. As long as we try to reconcile the rules with the fluff, and if I remember correctly, Nix died first and reemerged changed, Hamelin shortly after him. If the rule is supposed to simulate the fact that Book 1 Hamelin could co-exist with Book 2 Nix for couple of minutes, then it is a bit overdone I think - creates confusion and is bound to create some arguments between players who follow fluff more closely. I think only Hamelin the Plagued should be able to hire Nix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted May 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) As long as we try to reconcile the rules with the fluff, and if I remember correctly, Nix died first and reemerged changed, Hamelin shortly after him. If the rule is supposed to simulate the fact that Book 1 Hamelin could co-exist with Book 2 Nix for couple of minutes, then it is a bit overdone I think - creates confusion and is bound to create some arguments between players who follow fluff more closely. I think only Hamelin the Plagued should be able to hire Nix. But who's to say that Nix isn't travelling backwards through time in search of his Master? After all, he does have alot of other backwards abilities. Or more likely, it allows for an alternate timeline where Hamelin escapes the Tyrant Plague but Nix was left to die? By the rules, Nix is only allowed in a crew with either version of Hamelin and I can tell you now that this wasn't an oversight. Nix's rules don't specifically make him available to any crew with Hamelin (eg. Nix doesn't have Mercenary), so you still need a way to include both Hamelin and Nix in the same crew. At this point, the only model who can do this in a scrap is Kirai, who's able to hire out-of-faction spirits like Nix. Of relevance to this thread is that Marcus can hire Hamelin as a Merc, but as a non-beast he can't currently hire Nix. Edited May 15, 2011 by Rathnard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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