Ideas for beating Hamelin the Plagued

[magicpockets]

As we've totally derailed Wodschows poll thread, I thought it would be an idea to start a thread with ideas for each master to counter Hamelin. There's a lot of very experienced people on here I'm sure who'll have ideas about how to beat him - and as much as I've now spent a fortune on a Hamelin crew, it will hopefully help people struggling against him if we can get some collective wisdom together.

Any takers?

[Dark Alleycat]

So from what I have seen thus far,Hamelin does have some drawbacks. But he has alot of easy ways to flat out annihilate someone's chances of winning many strategies due to insignificant...and he has an almost impossible time winning Slaughter.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[Dark Alleycat]

The question would be...What can be done to limit the damage he can do in games where you need to have non-insignificant models to complete strategies.

The first and most obvious thing would be to try and screen significant models with insignificant ones to prevent him from casting on them.

Difficult at times but its a possibility. The downside to this is that you are required to keep the three or more models together,and prevent hamelin from moving around them. This becomes very difficult very quickly.

Now another option is certain models are able to ignore WP duels,or to remove effects on themselves. Those would likely be the hardest models for Hamelin to deal with. I know he has a way to remove the immune to influence part If i remember correctly,but it requires him to lose a model. this could be a detriment depending on situation.

[Dolomyte]

At my girlfriends and typing before we go out to dinner. but, without a book present.

Lilith - Transposition rat catchers into your crew and kill them, transposition terrifying models or AE models (not sure what neverborn can AE Nekima maybe, but black blood is pretty sweet as well) into melee combat with as many rats as possible.

Pandora - As has been stated this is a bad matchup for hamelin. Jack daw, a dopple, and some stitched together to kill the rat catchers. Once the catchers are dead pandora can chain kill all the rats with pacifys / incites. Or, you know, let rats attack your terrifying stuff.

Zoraida - not entirely sure what I would do with her without looking at a back, papa bomb would be fun, and if both ratcatchers were too close to one another you could really ruin a hamelin players day, that does rely on the hamelin player making a mistake, or a favorable objective

Perdita - Her crew has high enough damage and range that some chain activating can snipe out the rat catchers and then seriously dent the rats.

Rasputina / Sonnia Criid - not the same master but I am going to combine them since I would play them the same way, I would arc spells off rats / catchers/ or stolen into catchers and as many rats as I could grab. Might also target my witchlings with sonnia or my molemen with tina. Tina is better off because she will do more damage, but she has less blast radious.

Colette - I would let the coryphee / cassandra kill rat catchers, coryphee can move through the rats and are typically high enough defense to avoid any strikes, cassandra can AOE. I would hide colette until hopefully hamelin got killed or sacrificed once so my melee spell could target his CA of 4, making it a CA of 1. woot.

Ok we are leaving, ill give you more tomorrow when I have books.

[magicpockets]

[url=http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19878]

But he has alot of easy ways to flat out annihilate someone's chances of winning many strategies due to insignificant

See question on this -> http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=224389#post224389

[Dark Alleycat]

Granted,what I am trying to do is find ways for armies that dont have an easy possible counter to hamelin to find ways to counter him.

For instance if I were playing Seamus,I would just lure the ratcatchers into the middle of my army and kill them.

Another idea that just came to my idea is to use supressing fire on the rat swarms. Its a guarentee they are going to be tightly packed,and even with being able to draw cards from you cheating,he wont want to discard that many just to keep them moving. And even if he killed the models off with his own models to replace them,it will still cut down on the activations and actions he can do.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[magicpockets]

See, the ideas are coming now

I'll post some longer thoughts tomorrow. For now I'm off to bed

[Wodschow]

As we've totally derailed tadakas poll thread.

Fixed that for you..

Also @Dolomyte, why do you suggest blasts and pulses? Catchers will heal up immediately if you kill any of the Rats.. =/

[Necromorph]

Hmm, honestly (and this is coming from someone who plays Hamelin but has never been on the receiving end haha), in games with strategies that require capturing or holding objectives, I would say go for them early.

As you may have read in the Tactica, casters and heavy hitters are priority number one with Hamelin. Now, games of attrition and pussy-footing around aren't going to go well for you as those are the games Hamelin thrives on. Send your scary stuff right down his throat and force him to deal with them before they can take out his key models and slow down his pain train.

Send fast, hard to target, or terrain abusing models to capture your objectives. Ingnore the typical turn 1-2 strutting and posturing and go for things as early as possible. Hamelin takes a couple turns to really get going before he starts bringing the hurt, and the more you can accomplish before the "inevitable" the better. If you've already captured your objectives, or moved your markers to your zone, etc etc, then he can only try to wipe you out, and it turns into a game of keep away.

Granted, this is very very general advice, and will be night impossible for some crews with some strategies, but we also know that this balances with some of the strategies that Hamelin is horrible at (slaughter comes to mind).

[WUWU]

Kidnap

First Blood

Bodyguard (with most masters)

A Mother's Love

Reflections of December

Family Justice

Sabotage (With Colette)

Are all really easy schemes to get 2 VP from when playing against Hamelin.

Depending on the strategy, most of my success has come from just avoiding the plagued crew as much as possible

Also, swarm models that lose insignificant when grouped up are ideal

Edited April 2, 2011 by WUWU

[Dark Alleycat]

Mainly I try and find options for things that don't require your opponent to screw up lol.

And we are working on ways to still accomplish strategies,since those will allways be the more valuable parts of earning a victory.

[Dolomyte]

Fixed that for you..

Also @Dolomyte, why do you suggest blasts and pulses? Catchers will heal up immediately if you kill any of the Rats.. =/

I should be clearer about that, when I say use blasts, I recommend doing that to clear house. with bite of winter / the other spell that does a static 2 damage over and over, I would lower the ratcatchers to the point they would die simul with the rats. or with papa loco if he goes in after nino has dealt some damage. Blast armies should do much better at clearing newly vulnerable rat swarms then single attack armies.

[Dolomyte]

Mainly I try and find options for things that don't require your opponent to screw up lol.

And we are working on ways to still accomplish strategies,since those will allways be the more valuable parts of earning a victory.

99% of the time I find it easier to deny your opponent achieving his strategy before worrying about my own. If on turn 4 I only have hamelin and a stolen or two to worry about, I can feel free to accomplish whatever I want.

[Sandwich]

Hmm, honestly (and this is coming from someone who plays Hamelin but has never been on the receiving end haha), in games with strategies that require capturing or holding objectives, I would say go for them early.

As you may have read in the Tactica, casters and heavy hitters are priority number one with Hamelin. Now, games of attrition and pussy-footing around aren't going to go well for you as those are the games Hamelin thrives on. Send your scary stuff right down his throat and force him to deal with them before they can take out his key models and slow down his pain train.

Send fast, hard to target, or terrain abusing models to capture your objectives. Ingnore the typical turn 1-2 strutting and posturing and go for things as early as possible. Hamelin takes a couple turns to really get going before he starts bringing the hurt, and the more you can accomplish before the "inevitable" the better. If you've already captured your objectives, or moved your markers to your zone, etc etc, then he can only try to wipe you out, and it turns into a game of keep away.

Granted, this is very very general advice, and will be night impossible for some crews with some strategies, but we also know that this balances with some of the strategies that Hamelin is horrible at (slaughter comes to mind).

I'm not going to be a part of this thread beyond this, and I'll probably end up deleting my tacticas, but

Don't you find it hilarious that they work fervently to discredit my every word and then quote my tacticas like the fricken bible?

Off to Freeeeeeeeeedddddddddddd Meeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyeeeeeeeerrrrrrrr for a six pack of Snaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppppppppplllllllllllllleeeeeee!!!

Edited April 3, 2011 by Sandwich
Added emphasis to bible for justice

[Necromorph]

@ Sandwich

Yeah it did read like that didn't it?!

Hmm, but if you reeaaaalllly look at it, you're diagnosis in the Tactica was 110% right.

Those models are the main threat to a Hamelin crew, I wasn't quoting your tactica, I was pointing out a useful bit of information that I agree'd with from it that can help other people out. Am I wrong? Is there really a solid way to take Hamelin out dependably? No...just no.

My post was directed as a "this is what I would do" situation. No idea how well it would work in all scenario's tbh, but it's something that I feel could help others out in certain strategies. My goal in talking to you about Hamelin was to toss some ideas around and hammer some details out about the crew. I'm not the most experienced player, and it helps to get insight from people who have a lot of experience digesting the gameplay.

I was just pointing out a useful bit of information that you pointed out originally, zip your pants back up, I'm not here to SYD.

[Sandwich]

@ Sandwich

Yeah it did read like that didn't it?!

Hmm, but if you reeaaaalllly look at it, you're diagnosis in the Tactica was 110% right.

Those models are the main threat to a Hamelin crew, I wasn't quoting your tactica, I was pointing out a useful bit of information that I agree'd with from it that can help other people out. Am I wrong? Is there really a solid way to take Hamelin out dependably? No...just no.

My post was directed as a "this is what I would do" situation. No idea how well it would work in all scenario's tbh, but it's something that I feel could help others out in certain strategies. My goal in talking to you about Hamelin was to toss some ideas around and hammer some details out about the crew. I'm not the most experienced player, and it helps to get insight from people who have a lot of experience digesting the gameplay.

I was just pointing out a useful bit of information that you pointed out originally, zip your pants back up, I'm not here to SYD.

I wasn't calling you out.

You're sensible.

You see what's going on.

And while I'm breaking my vow of stfuing on this thread.

Its just that they(Not you) will talk trash about every word I spew like I don't know what I'm talking about and then praise my Tactica(s) to high Heaven.

And its funny you mention zipping up my pants.

As I walked through the store with my zipper down.

:[

[Necromorph]

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to be all defensive.

I understand your point, and yeah, it can be annoying dealing with the naysayers. It is what it is though. I just want to be helpful in whatever capacity I can by sharing my experiences/opinions (as limited as they may or may not be).

I appreciate the input though, it has helped me quite a bit since I'm still on the new-er side of things with this game.

I hear ya tho, Hamelin won't be my primary master, since I don't want people "not wanting to play me" because they're pissed about Hamelin. Levi has and always will be my primary master, I just like Hamelin's crew/fluff, and want to help people learn how to play with and against him so people can try to work some way around him and dispell some of this bad blood.

[Sandwich]

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to be all defensive.

I understand your point, and yeah, it can be annoying dealing with the naysayers. It is what it is though. I just want to be helpful in whatever capacity I can by sharing my experiences/opinions (as limited as they may or may not be).

I appreciate the input though, it has helped me quite a bit since I'm still on the new-er side of things with this game.

I hear ya tho, Hamelin won't be my primary master, since I don't want people "not wanting to play me" because they're pissed about Hamelin. Levi has and always will be my primary master, I just like Hamelin's crew/fluff, and want to help people learn how to play with and against him so people can try to work some way around him and dispell some of this bad blood.

:]

Screw not posting.

I really do dig Hamelin's story.

I love the entire concept of his set up.

And he just looks cool.

I'm really hoping that Hamelin will be a lot like the dreamer.

Because his model only recently came out and people are only now really playtesting him competitively.

So maybe we will get some hard counters to him that will eventually balance him out and not make me feel like a cheat just for choosing him as my master.

At least, that's what I'm hoping for.

I'll definately be playing with and against him a lot to find any holes in his armor that I can.

[Dolomyte]

Unfortunately and also fortunately the strength of malifaux is customization. What scenario are we playing. What's the terrain. What are our respective pools of models to draw from.

Let's step back from how crazy this has become (I'm as guilty as anyone) and try to seriously debate just hamelin.

List a scenario or situation where we think hamelin is dominant that we need to counter or think is near impossible to deal with. We will assume 12 pieces of terrain, some small, some large on the table. List point level. The hamelin list that concerns you. And if there is a specific or group of masters your concerned about.

Were going to end up circling if we can't use specifics.

[Sandwich]

I'd definately say he's toast in anything Slaughter related, regardless of how good or bad anyone is playing.

35 Soul Stone Game

Hamelin the Plagued - 8 Soul Stones

Nix - 7

Rat Catcher - 5

The Stolen - 3

The Stolen - 3

Malifaux Rat - 2

Malifaux Rat - 2

Malifaux Rat - 2

Malifaux Rat - 2

Malifaux Rat - 2

(Rats x5)

Is an impregnable force, honestly.

It's the list I have used literally every single time I've played.

I can definitely say it works well, but not in slaughter.

I only got lucky once when there was a terrifying model so I could get my Rat Catcher away so he would stop respawning rats.

- - - -

As for a strategy he's powerful at,

How would one go about getting him for Contain Power if he had Escape and Survive.

(Escape and Survive is doable now due to the change in the Rules Manual.)

[magicpockets]

Seems like everyone agrees that the main target should be any ratcatchers to start with - would everyone (nay sayers and yay-sayers alike) agree? If so, how can different masters deal with them assuming they're in the middle of a rat swarm? If not - what should be the first step in beating a general (if such a thing exists in Malifaux) Hamelin crew?

[Dark Alleycat]

And as far as myself is concerned,and I believe Pockets as well,neither of us have called you out on anything about your tacticas.

Anyways....I think its important to spread knowledge about hamelin,so that rather then having people freaking out and tossing around cuddle hamelin threads and other whinyness.

If people know in general his strengths and weaknesses,some of the ways to counter them...Then it wont feel hopeless.

And it will mean that you dont have to feel guilty playing hamelin :bigthumb:

[hippieshopper]

Yes, but the fact we have so many of these "Beat up Hamelin" threads, isn't that proof alone he is overpowered?

I don't really have the time right now to pull up all of the discrediting people do against Sandy, but it's not such...direct "You're wrong, buttlicker" but more of just people cherry picking everything he says like politicians.

[Ratty]

Yes, but the fact we have so many of these "Beat up Hamelin" threads, isn't that proof alone he is overpowered?

I think it is a reaction to how loud some people are about how OP he is. I don't think people have an issue with Sandwich having his believes about Hamelin and his Tactica Thread is good, However they seem to be get annoyed as to how every thread about Hamelin becomes overwhealmingly Sandwich yelling down any kind of discussion over Hamelin.

Hamelin may well be OP however there is no way to tell over all the noise that is surrounding him, all of which is coming from one play group in Tacoma.

[Ratty]

The problem is all this negativity from both sides is not good. Hamelin went through playtesting which meant that most of the people that tested him thought he was reasonably well balanced. A few issues got through due to people not noticing an infinite loop, this happens. But overall he can't be as horrifically unbalaced as some people make out.

However imagine how it looks to any new person that comes on the forum. I would love for there to be a thread which didn't get derailed by and overvocal minority. People have been very decent in Sandwich's tactica thread, keeping it to fixing rules issues or adding suggestions. Could we have the same kind of decorum on a thread about how to play against Hamelin. Having people shouting over any suggestions with litanies about how it won't work as Hamelin is unbeatable is not helpful. If there is a rule issues with the post that will make it not work then point it out. A lot of the rebukes seem to be "THAT WON'T WORK, if I activate all my models and all there abilities hit your model will be dead if you try that". Replying to something like the discussion of Sonnia's Flame Burst "you will have to watch out as her ability is only 10" and a lot of the Stolen and Hamelin's abilities have longer range" would have been enough, and at least warned opposing players to take this into account.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Ratty