Hamlin power level poll. Not a debate

[Ratty]

Understand the Soulless and Inevitable Truth have 12" range

Sonnia's fireball is 10"

She does nothing the rest of the game.

"It doesn't matter how many times you do something if you are doing it poorly"

I believe you said something along those lines in another thread.

Your assuming a lot of things here WUWU. That sonnia doesn't just throw up a flame wall to avoid you attacking back. That you models will be in range to retaliate. If a rat is in 10" of her, she can hit a model up to 18" away due to the trigger and the three blasts. She also has advanced counter spell and her Witchling stalkers can dispel magic. whats the likeliness of anything sticking to her.

[WUWU]

You are assuming a lot of things as well. That's sort of the downside to theory crafting.

I did forget about the dispel though, that's a good point.

Flame Walls against The Plagued are a really bad idea though

Edited April 2, 2011 by WUWU

[Ratty]

You are assuming a lot of things as well. That's sort of the downside to theory crafting.

I did forget about the dispel though, that's a good point.

I didn't assume anything, I just pointed out that were a lot of different things that Sonnia could do to mitigate retaliation. It was you that posted more or less "Your talking rubbish, If you were in range to do that you would have no hope at all and be dead dead dead".

[WUWU]

Yeah, more or less

When giving a counter to a possible "strategy" to beat Hamelin I'm the one assuming everything?

This is turning into "If you do x, I can do y" which is a waste of time really. I shouldn't have made that post about Sonnia, and regret doing so now.

...but, Sandwich and I both have made a number of posts articulating why Hamelin is powerful. I'm very comfortable calling him the best master in the game. In response we've gotten mostly all ad hominem attack. You can see how this might be a little frustrating?

Edited April 2, 2011 by WUWU

[Sandwich]

Yeah, more or less

When giving a counter to a possible "strategy" to beat Hamelin I'm the one assuming everything?

This is turning into "If you do x, I can do y" which is a waste of time really. I shouldn't have made that post about Sonnia, and regret doing so now.

...but, Sandwich and I both have made a number of posts articulating why Hamelin is powerful. I'm very comfortable calling him the best master in the game. In response we've gotten mostly all ad hominem attack. You can see how this might be a little frustrating?

Flame warriors unite!

Against those two!

Seriousness inbound, and no, I'm not trying to piss anyone off,

But it seems that the vast majority of Malifaux fans are content with his current standing, regardless of how we, the few, feel.

So I'm going to say its in Wyrd's best monetary interest to just keep him the way he is and not change anything else.

I'm personally just going to go back to Seamus and use Hamelin & his rats as proxy models.

In fact, I have pink paint with me as we speak.

He's going to be my bottom b*tch from this day on.

Unless I feel like easymoding a tournament.

Which is what I suspect is the desire of those defending his current status.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Sandwich

[EricJ]

A good number of the posts in this thread are not appropriate for the forums. I'm not going to close this thread now, but shape it up.

To be clear:

You MAY discuss/debate and even disagree about the subject at hand

You MAY NOT attempt to win those debates by personally attacking another person, or by devaluing them and their opinions.

Consider it a warning, and continue with the discussions, as it's a good topic/poll.

[Dumb Luck]

So now you're an expert on EVERY (0) action too? Wow.

The best (0) action is Dumb and Lucky, I think you'll find. =)

[Dark Alleycat]

I still say that being able to cheat any flip you want is better,but dumb and lucky is pretty close I will grant.

[hippieshopper]

Flame warriors unite!

Against those two!

Seriousness inbound, and no, I'm not trying to piss anyone off,

But it seems that the vast majority of Malifaux fans are content with his current standing, regardless of how we, the few, feel.

So I'm going to say its in Wyrd's best monetary interest to just keep him the way he is and not change anything else.

I'm personally just going to go back to Seamus and use Hamelin & his rats as proxy models.

In fact, I have pink paint with me as we speak.

He's going to be my bottom b*tch from this day on.

Unless I feel like easymoding a tournament.

Which is what I suspect is the desire of those defending his current status.

Make that 3, my brother...as much as I dislike him, I know he is someone's lovechild...therefore, nothing will change. For better or for worse. But I am siding with you guys cause regardless of numbers...you make more sense.

[Ratty]

I notice that all the most vocal people about how broken Hamelin is are all from Tacoma, I wonder if it is as much to do with the local Metagame as Hamelins power level.

[paradox]

I dunno. I also had the great misfortune of facing Hamelin, and I think I tend toward the camp of WTFBBQ currently.

It's true I haven't played against him since that game, but it's also very telling that I have absolutely no desire to either. Becuase it was the longest, most boring, most futile and frustrating game (of any game system) I have played in a long, long time. Frankly, I have better ways to spend my time than waiting about 2 hours to finally lose, as the opponent repeatedly activates models, then I get to move one, assuming it can actually do anything meaningful now. Rinse, repeat.

Hamelin may or may not be OP, but he left me with the distinct impression that he his the most boring master to have to face, and makes for the most tedious, frustrating game. That's just a bad sale-point for the game.

[Hookers]

Edit: :ditto: he essentially says the same thing that I do if you're one of those people that goes to the internet forums to, you know, read stuff, but then are all like tl;dr

The best (0) action is Dumb and Lucky, I think you'll find. =)

only because the best trigger in the game is Calculated Luck though, haha

as to the meta-debate, i don't think you should debate a topic in a thread that was asked for there not to be a debate in. but clearly you can debate anything anywhere, and if its worth being debated then I guess that's ok. really a good debate starts with ... oh... ahem... right..

as far as hamelin is concerned, my issue with him is not the power level. if he were the worst master in the game I'd still think he is horrible for it (maybe less so because people wouldn't play him and you wouldn't have to worry about it).

he takes too long to finish a turn. even an experienced player.

first turn: move a rat.

opponent goes.

move a rat.

opponent goes.

move a rat.

opponent goes.

draw a card with a wretch.

opponent goes.

move a rat.

opponent goes.

move nix straight ahead no matter what strategy or schemes you have or the terrain layout.

opponent goes.

move a rat.

opponent goes.

move a ratcatcher within 6" of all the rats. slaughter. place each rat into base to base with a previous rat before removing it.

opponent goes (to get a sandwich or something, maybe watch some tv).

do something irrelevant with hamelin.

opponent goes (but is probably out of models by this point)

move a rat that has already gone.

opponent goes (to contemplate suicide in the bathroom).

move another rat that has already gone and all the rats that are now close enough to be companioned.

move your other ratcatcher up. slaughter. take the time to place each rat into base to base with a previous rat before removing it.

move all the rats again.

that's turn 1 and assuming your opponent has played against hamelin before and did not make the mistake of trying to kill anything (i almost said rats, but really its anything. if you are trying to kill anything its a waste of time)

turns 2 through until the opponent gives up repeat the EXACT SAME STEPS every time, for every strategy and scheme, except with more rats and they'll be of course attacking stuff in the mean time.

if hamelin were the worst master in the game he would be just as frustrating and mind numbingly painful to play against.

in a 95 minute timed match for a tournament? fugidabowdit. you'll get to turn 2 and it will probably be a draw. this is with the hamelin player going as fast as he can because he definitely would have won. he will probably even forgo slaughtering rats sometimes (which otherwise there is never a reason EVER not to) just to try and get to turn three so he might have stake a claim or something.

he is also bad because he is a giant n00b trap. everything that a player thinks is a good idea, just isn't. he quite simply tricks you into playing even more at a disadvantage by playing into what he wants you to do because it appears like a good idea. i have a pretty long write up with all of the ways that his crew does this but i'll leave it at that for now.

sandwich has a really good guide on how to play hamelin well. here is mine:

put hamelin in the corner.

let the rats kill everything.

the end.

now it's not as nuanced as sandwich's, but will still win you at least 9 out of 10 games. Really its the same strategy, he just wants you to have a little more fun making stuff insignificant, obeying masters, and ruining everyone's day with a nix bomb.

the slightly ironic and joking tone of my post aside, flame away. i defended him at first too, essentially on the grounds of "well he's not that good. I could beat him." the thing is that doesn't matter. he just sucks. he is not fun. that is way worse than being overpowered.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Hookers

[Hookers]

I notice that all the most vocal people about how broken Hamelin is are all from Tacoma, I wonder if it is as much to do with the local Metagame as Hamelins power level.

i think this is because sandwich was playing hamelin a lot before he had come out, and no one else did.

he isn't super intuitive to play as either. its a simple thing to be told, but takes a little more to figure it out by yourself. if you play him like you play other masters he will seem lackluster. you really just have to abuse the crap out of the rats and their potentially limitless activations.

[Ratty]

Remember that if you activate a Rat all Rats within 4" activate simultaneously. Which is going to cut down on your activation count. I know a lot of people if they are activating a group of rats at the same time and there is no combat move them all together to speed things up.

[Hookers]

Remember that if you activate a Rat all Rats within 4" activate simultaneously. Which is going to cut down on your activation count. I know a lot of people if they are activating a group of rats at the same time and there is no combat move them all together to speed things up.

yeah you just deploy them more than 4" apart.

you still keep an activation advantage throughout the game because as your opponent is losing models you are gaining them.

[Dark Alleycat]

I do think that having a player that is really good at playing a master will make the local players be more concerned then others. Hell,look at how the portland players feel about the alp bomb. We have our local henchman,who only brings it out when people ask about it,but it is absolutely brutal.

[hippieshopper]

Well, if I had the moola...I would fund a little outing so that other people could see what we are talking about.

[tadaka]

Well, if I had the moola...I would fund a little outing so that other people could see what we are talking about.

Record us up a few games and toss them on youtube. I would not mind watching a few games.

[Dolomyte]

That would actually be amazing.

[Sandwich]

We'd need to nab a decent camera, I suppose.

And the other issue is that we play on Thursdays, and all these pokemon kids come and play their stupid card game.

And you know how great a bunch of ritalin addled 12 year olds are at keeping quiet.

I suppoes we could just play a home-game.

With pots and pans.

[Dark Alleycat]

And we could show you just how damn difficult it is to beat Genetic's alp bomb lol.

[tadaka]

Would love to see that alp bomb as well.

Even if the game is a field of pots and pans I would love to see how your game goes sand.

[Sandwich]

And we could show you just how damn difficult it is to beat Genetic's alp bomb lol.

I really want to one day just drive down to Portland and play all of you dudes.

Just for fun.

[Sandwich]

And hopefully get Alp bombed by a pro.

[Dark Alleycat]

Honestly that would be totally awesome.