Stacking Guardian's Protect Spell

[Turbodog]

Question regarding the guardian's ability (1) Protect.

"When target model suffers Wds while within 3" of this model, this model may suffer those Wds instead. This spell ends when...."

Guardians are rare 2, so I could take 2 in a crew.

So what happens if Guardian 1 protects my master and Guardian 2 protects Guardian 1? Could I chain the wounds to my master down to Guardian 2?

1. Master receives wounds from an enemy

2. INTERRUPT...Guardian 1 takes those wounds instead of master

3. INTERRUPT...Guardian 2 takes those wounds instead of Guardian 1

4. Wounds actually occur to Guardian 2 model.

[MrNybbles]

Yes, you can do this. It may seem a bit odd, but I don't see anything preventing you from doing this.

The downside to this sort of chaining is if Guardian 1 gets killed, sacrificed, or buried then the defensive chain to the master is broken. The casting requiring a 10+ is also a little high.

You could also have the two Guardians Protect each other and pass of damage that would be fatal to the other Guardian until enough damage has been inflicted on both of them that either one would die.

[Turbodog]

Conceded that instant kill/sacrifice/bury could break the chain. But I'm just worried about suffering wounds right now.

In particular, stacked up immediate 1 wounds from the likes of an "alp bomb". I'd like to build a castle that can resist the bomb.

With Guardian's Protect spell, I can shuffle each wound (1 at a time) down the chain as far as I need to. I'm guessing with maximum alps, I might take, oh I don't know, maybe 9 wounds from the initial activation (smother) and then another 4 or so from walking/striking (exhaustion). 13 single damages is too much for any model (save the executioner), but if I can shuffle them between guardians... You get the idea.

In the above case, my activating model potentially could have just 1 wound while each guardian has taken 6 (and has 3 remaining).

Like I said, just looking for a creative way to NOT lose models instantly upon activation during an "alp bomb" like attack.

If this works, I'll be considering a 4 model chain:

Guardian 1, Guardian 2, Hoffman (assimilate Protect), Totem (Magical Extension for Protect).

Depending on totem, this gives me a variety of models to shuffle wounds in the chain to, several of which may have healing available.

[MrNybbles]

Conceded that instant kill/sacrifice/bury could break the chain. But I'm just worried about suffering wounds right now.

In particular, stacked up immediate 1 wounds from the likes of an "alp bomb". I'd like to build a castle that can resist the bomb.

With Guardian's Protect spell, I can shuffle each wound (1 at a time) down the chain as far as I need to. I'm guessing with maximum alps, I might take, oh I don't know, maybe 9 wounds from the initial activation (smother) and then another 4 or so from walking/striking (exhaustion). 13 single damages is too much for any model (save the executioner), but if I can shuffle them between guardians... You get the idea.

In the above case, my activating model potentially could have just 1 wound while each guardian has taken 6 (and has 3 remaining).

Like I said, just looking for a creative way to NOT lose models instantly upon activation during an "alp bomb" like attack.

If this works, I'll be considering a 4 model chain:

Guardian 1, Guardian 2, Hoffman (assimilate Protect), Totem (Magical Extension for Protect).

Depending on totem, this gives me a variety of models to shuffle wounds in the chain to, several of which may have healing available.

Check out Episode 29 of the Gamer's Lounge for information on The Dreamer, how to play with him and how to play against him.

If you have 2 Guardians protecting Hoffman then there is a good chance the group will be alp-bombed. Step 1 is to live through the Alp-bomb, step 2 is to kill the Alps. Spells and blasts work well for this.

The Drill Sergeant has a spell called "Attennn-Hut!" which not only ends slow on a model, but makes it immune to slow until the end closing phase. This may be worth looking into.

Ryle's (2) Automatic Fire action can hit a few Alps at once.

Pappa Loco is good for killing Alps with his blasts, including when he dies.

The Soulstone Miner's Shatter Stone Spell can blast away Alps if you can cheat it to severe damage.

The Freikorps Specialist is excellent at killing Alps, including when it is killed.

[Turbodog]

Well said, Nybbles! I've listened to the episode.

We're working on what you've listed as step 1..."how to live through the alp bomb".

Also, in the episode, the hosts seem to be of the opinion that the dreamer crew is "in control" and essentially will get to choose an initial model of yours to die. I wish to deny them this. I want to build a castle that can effectively protect models such that it is not a foregone conclusion that they will die...or at least so that I can choose what will die, and not my opponent.

Currently I'm focusing on how I can muscle the "protect" spell to deny an alp bomb its deadliness.

And actually, I am very happy that the 2 guardians and master tight together looks like an "alpable" target. If the alps drop in and then it's my turn and I can react without losing models, then I believe I will win.

Like most strategies, once my opponent has seen it, they won't "fall for it" again. For the dreamer, this changes to a fast movement, defensive game (at least according to pod cast). At this time I'm good with that. If I haven't lost models when this happens, I believe I have a fighting chance (especially with guild where I can include some good ranged options).

Sorry this got a little long-winded. To sum up, in this thread, I'm just exploring ways to defeat the strategy of "piling on 1 damage wounds in large quantities" which the alp bomb is such a good example of.

[MrNybbles]

Some members of your crew you will probably want to actually have die off to kill more Alps.

I haven't seen anything to really help with boosting the Wp stat so far in a Scrap. In a Brawl Colette can hire Hoffman and she also has Special Charm to boost friendly Arcanist models' Wp stat by +2.

[Expendable Crew]

6 Pappa Loco -- BOOM!: 3, 5 Dg when this model is killed.

Freikorps Specialist -- Flammenwerfer: . . . WHen this model is killed, it generates a 3, Dg 3.

4 Steampunk Arachnid -- Self Destruct. Spread them out so you can move them in close enough in one move, then use Self Destruct to blow up Alps. Wp 6 is decent.

[Crew]

7 Guardian (Rare 2) -- Protect:

3 Mechanical Attendant (Totem)

3 Drill Sergeant (Totem) -- "Attennn-Hut!":

4 Mobile Toolkit (Totem) -- Handy: . . . While in base contact with its connected Master, this model may not be damaged by or effects. Controlled Detonation. This model probably won't survive an Alp bomb.

7 Soulstone Miner ( Special Forces(M&SU Asset) )

8 Ryle (Unique) -- Automatic Fire. Note: Easily killed by in an Alp-bomb due to Destructive Impulse.

Also, a lot of the time other nasty models like Coppelius will be in there as well.

[tadaka]

You are getting what he said wrong. He was saying chomp eats a model and you cant do crap about it not the bomb. The bomb you can activate what order you want.

Pretty much what you have to do if the other guy is going to bomb you is break your group up. Not super far apart just like o say 8 inches. Then when he bombs in one place you use the other models to kill off as many alps as you can before your other models activate and eat the bomb. There is a lot more involved but that's the basic counter.

Edited March 30, 2011 by tadaka

[tadaka]

8 Ryle (Unique) -- Automatic Fire. Note: Easily killed by in an Alp-bomb due to Destructive Impulse.

Also, a lot of the time other nasty models like Coppelius will be in there as well.

8 Ryle (Unique) -- Automatic Fire. Note: Easily killed by in an Alp-bomb due to Destructive Impulse.

This is just wrong he is immune to the bomb. Breach Psychosis makes the alp bomb do squat. He is immune to the talent that makes him take the Wp check.

Note ryle also has the ability to move out of the alp bomb with his push and shoot back in (Depending on if there is a live model on the table and position)

Papa is a very poor option. Papa can not blow up any where close to Hoffman. That means unless the dreamer crew is stupid and decides to go alp bomb just papa sitting by himself papa is worthless in the hoffman crew for this.

Same thing for The Freikorps Specialist

Edited March 30, 2011 by tadaka

[nix]

Ryle has trouble pushing out of an alp-bomb scenario because nightmares are not alive. This becomes especially difficult in a Hoffman crew. That aside, Ryle is pretty damn good at killing nightmares and alps.

As for where your heading, I like the idea. One or two guardians linked to or near C.Hoffman would work wonders. When you then add in Hoffmans "Open Circuit" you will end up with many dead Alps. Basically, Hoffman plus 2 guardians (if alive) should be pulsing out 4 damage in a 3 inch pulse that will kill Alps without inflicting follow-up damage to Hoffman. (Open Circuit is not a strike).

In my experience, Hoffman's entire crew is very difficult for the Dreamer crew to deal with. Hoffman and crew has armor, movement, and immune to influence all working for them. Hoffman's pulses work wonders as well.

[tadaka]

On that I will agree. Hoffman is one of the better masters vs this tactic.

For the anti push thing. If there is a live model any where on the table. I like nino Pushing becomes an option. But its situational. You can activate him first however and punch out a few alps

Edited March 30, 2011 by tadaka

[MrNybbles]

Yeah, I had to quit working on that post in the middle of writing it and left a lot of things unchecked and incomplete. Sorry about that.

I haven't quite figured out the deal with Breach Psychosis and Destructive Impulse. He gets a -3 Wp until he kills something, but how is that a drawback when he is protected by Breach Psychosis? The Performer's Irresistible is the only Wp duel he must take because it can't be ignored. Also, he doesn't seem to have any attacks that use Wp.

Pretty much what you have to do if the other guy is going to bomb you is break your group up. Not super far apart just like o say 8 inches. Then when he bombs in one place you use the other models to kill off as many alps as you can before your other models activate and eat the bomb. There is a lot more involved but that's the basic counter.

This is kinda what I was thinking with the Steampunk Arachnids. I have never seen an Alp-bomb hit the table yet so I don't know how effective sending spiders in and blowing up near a couple of Alps would be. Anyways, with Open Circuit this probably isn't the way to go.

Ryle has trouble pushing out of an alp-bomb scenario because nightmares are not alive. This becomes especially difficult in a Hoffman crew. That aside, Ryle is pretty damn good at killing nightmares and alps.

Although Ryle shouldn't be able to use (0) Socially Repressed to do a push, he has Hulking which prevents Ht 1 & 2 models from performing a disengaging strike on him. Usually you won't have LCB on the table at that time. Teddy could perform a disengaging strike, though it is a Construct and may be taken controll of by Hoffman. No other Nightmares so far are Ht 3 or more. However, an Alp-bomb could lock in Ryle by placing 3 Alps around Ryle to lock him in place.

(0) Socially Repressed: Push this model 4" directly away from the closest living model.

Mechanized: This model is both a Construct and a living model. . . .

Socially Repressed bothers me a little bit because technically Ryle is always the closest living model to himself. I know, they meant closest other living model, but this is the same wording issue Som'er Teeth Jones had with "Whoops!" before they changed it to "When this model misses with a Boomsick Strike, the closest other friendly model within 10" and LoS. . ."

[25 Soulstone Anti-Alp-Bomb List?]

* C. Hoffman (Cache: 4)

7 Guardian (Rare 2)

7 Guardian (Rare 2)

8 Ryle (Unique)

3 Drill Sergeant (Totem)

Note: This list is for looking at what these models have to offer to resist an Alp-bomb. I'm not suggesting anyone actually take this list.

[C. Hoffman]

(0) Assimilate: This action can be used on Ryle to gain Breach Psychosis for the rest of the turn.

(1) Open Circuit: 3 Spell that can easily kill alps dead. 2 Dg +1 Dg for each Construct in base contact with Hoffman. No resist duel either.

[Guardian]

Is one Guardian enough?

(0) Disrupt Magic: The Dreamer only needs a 3+ to place one friendly buried Nightmare, but needs a 3+:masks to trigger All My Friends and do the bomb. (Maybe that extra r in All My Friends is a typo). Also, does not inhibit your own spells (except for Ryle if he is outside of 6" of a model with Maintain Machines).

(1) Protect: Takes any Wd inflicted on another model instead of the inflicted model. A good backup if Hoffman hasn't used Assimilate to gain Breach Psychosis yet. This spell does not end at the end of the turn.

[Ryle]

He's at his best when he is outside of Melee. Unfortunatly Lilitu has a melee range of 4!

Breach Psychosis: Immune to other models Talents and Spells requiring it to make a Wp Duel.

Can't Connect: This can be ignored if within 6" of a model with the Maintain Machines ability.

Hulking: Ht 1 & 2 Models can't perform disengaging strikes against him. This is every Nightmare except LCB and Teddy.

(2) Automatic Fire: Step 1, Slaughter an Alp, Step Two, Slaughter up to two other Alps within 2" of the first Alp. Step 3, Profit!

[Drill Sergeant]

(0) Link: If he doesn't need to spend AP to move around then he can cast "Attennn-Hut!" twice in one activation. Maybe Link to a Guardian.

(1) "Attennn-Hut!": . . .Target model is immune to Slow until the End Closing Phase.

[LoboStele]

(1) Open Circuit: 3 Spell that can easily kill alps dead. 2 Dg +1 Dg for each Construct in base contact with Hoffman. No resist duel either.

Where are you seeing no Resist Duel? According to my book, it's a Rst: Df. Still though, Hoff will need at least 1 Construct in base contact with him in order to get the 3 Damage, and it's likely he'll have more than 1, so you're looking at pretty easily being able to start at Ca 7 or 8 and then have a total of 19 or so, putting it out of range for the Alps Df of 4. Maybe that's what you meant.

The problem is, you can't Assimilate Breach Psychosis until you've activated. And once you Activate, then you have to deal with Smother. So, you're still probably going to take the damage from that, unless you get really lucky with your flips, or burn a Soulstone to beat it (probably not a bad idea, especially if you think you can turn around kill several of the Alps). So, in most cases Assimilating Breach Psychosis will probably only help you have to ignore any follow-on Wp duels that any still living Alps throw at you.

Your best defense will be if Hoffman is outside of the 4" to start with, then you assimilate Breach Psychosis, and walk in to do Open Circuit. I would think most Alp Bomb players wouldn't let you do that though.

Still though, with a solid setup, I can definitely see how Hoffman would be a tough matchup for an Alp Bomb squad, or even Chompy in general to some degree. Lots of Immune to Influence options. Good armor for defense against Chompy. Open Circuit could be BRUTAL in most cases. And using Hoffman first, with a (0) to Link In something else big like Ryle or a Peacekeeper, along with either Open Circuit or Machine Puppet...Lots of attacks after the Dreamer drops his Nightmares, but before they can activate and do anything.

[MadArcanist]

if your running constructs, why not run with the Governor's Proxy as a totem? Since they are all immune to Morale Duals they don't have to worry about instant dying to Watchful Eye and you get a +2 WP against the Alps Smother ability

[Turbodog]

Nix...thanks for seeing where I might be going.

Lobos...I think you and I are on the same page with this.

Nybbles...not sure if you get where I'm going.

Turbodog logic engine online:

Input: Use Hoffman crew vs. Dreamer

Input: Assume crews must not "bunch up" vs. Dreamer...

***WARNING*** Possible false assumption...test assumption...

Hoffman crew: Hoffman, Guardian x2 (all in contact); Dreamer crew: alps alps alps!

Run theoryfaux simulation: ALP BOMB!!!

Step 1: Alps pop up around Hoffman's castle

Desire: Hoffman can clear out alps if he can activate without dying in the middle of the bomb.

Directive: Activate Hoffman + shuffle wounds he takes to guardians.

Secondary Directive: Do not lose guardians...split up wounds due to shuffling 1 at a time.

Hoffman survives initial activation and can use spell to 3" pulse kill alps (damage 4 since he is in contact with two guardians)

Simulation complete. Hoffman crew survives, alps die.

Logic Engine offline.

The point of this thread is to see if I can build a strong enough castle to survive the alp bomb. As far as I can tell, the real problem is that while I might have a good counter to the alp bomb (e.g. Papa, Ryle, Specialist, Hoffman, etc.) I need to make sure that counter lives to do damage. The whole point of this thread is to discuss whether it is appropriate to stack guardian wounds and what potential effects this could have.

Additional Note: The Chompy Bit...it is true that I will have to worry about a few attacks from Chompy the instant the bomb hits (before I can react). This damage is different from the bomb damage, since it is not stacked 1 1 1 1 wounds, it is just single big hits. This kind of damage I'm more prepared for personally, it's like the damage I can expect from other crews. I feel like I have options here - armor's a big one; the guardian protect may still work for weak hits; I can more effectively use soulstone damage prevention if it's on Hoffman. We can go into discussing the Chompy Bit of the dreamer crew...but for organization and simplicity, I'd like to keep this thread just on the alp bomb.

Final Small Thought:

Hrm...2x Guardian, Hoffman, and take the Governor's Proxy as my totem. Now I have a living model in my own crew - to push Ryle if I go that way. Also, the Proxy can cast the anti-alp bomb open circuit (although he dies if Hoffman does and he's in range). His +Wp helps my crew vs. the bomb. And he can entension to do protect. If he's my chosen first dead model, then the alp that did it takes a wp check or dies. Interesting thought...

[Turbodog]

Just was typing that Arcanist!

[LoboStele]

Ahh, the Proxy is not a bad idea. You only have to have LOS in order to get the +2 Wp bonus, so wouldn't be too hard to keep him out of range of the pulse damage. Or, you could always use Companion to have him activate first, and try to move out of the Pulse range. If he dies due to Smother/Feed on Dreams, then no big deal.

[Turbodog]

Lobo!!! Stay with me...why does the governor's proxy have to die? We're thinking about moving around wounds remember?

Guardian 1 protects Guardian 2

Guardian 2 protects Hoffman

Hoffman protects Totem

Totem protects Guardian 1

Hit any of them and I'll tell you where each wound lands. No one has to die when they activate inside the alp bomb.

This configuration can "soak" each models (wd stat-1) before anyone has to die...that's available spots for the first 29 single alp damage wounds before someone drops. The 29 is also no healing is taken into account.

Alp damage is 1 wound at a time, so if I understand correctly (and that's what this thread is about), I can activate a model in the bomb...say the proxy for kicks. He fails his Wp test and takes maybe 10 wounds (big alp bomb). Those wounds go 3 to each guardian, 3 to hoffman, and 1 to the proxy because of protects. Next he WALKS a little. Why? To maximize damage from his pulse...I dunno. Walking in alp bomb!? That's another 6 or so damage. No problem. 2 to each guardian, 2 to Hoffman. Everyone's still okay. Now pulse to clear out the bomb. Guardians (and Hoffman with assimilate/SS) can heal up and since the bomb is gone, they don't need to take wounds to activate before doing it. Next please.

[Turbodog]

Bah, bad example with proxy above. He'd be slow and unable to walk and cast spell due to AP restrictions. Still - I hope my point go across.

[MrNybbles]

Where are you seeing no Resist Duel?

I must have looked at Combat Mechanic and misread it last night; Open Circuit defiantly has a Df resist. My bad.

The problem is, you can't Assimilate Breach Psychosis until you've activated. And once you Activate, then you have to deal with Smother.

Yes, it's the same drawback as the Drill Sergeant's Attennn-Hut which is why I mentioned also using Protect. You would need to activate first on the turn you get Alp-bombed on. It's not looking like a great option, partly because it eat's Hoffman's activation which you probably want to save for Open Circuit, but also because slow can be somewhat easily inflicted without Wp duels.

@Turbodog: I wasn't suggesting tactics or what to do, I was listing what the models had to offer. I had forgotten that Bill had mentioned the Governor's Proxy model which may be very useful.

You will often see other things inside an Alp bomb like Insidious Madness. These are some other talents and spells to watch out for inside the Alp-bomb.

Alps: Disturbing Whispers -- 6: Non-Nightmare, non-Masters receive -1 Wp. (Always expect). Also, their melee attacks can inflict slow which Breach Psychosis won't protect against.

Insidious Madness -- Psychopathic Episode 4, to Wp duels. (Likely to see). Prevents cheating and increases the odds of loosing the Wp duel.

Coppelius: Unhinge -- This can paralyze Ryle while his Destructive Impulse gives him -3 Wp. Sleep, My Friends -- All non-Master models receive Slow. Wp resist.

Note: As Bill mentioned in Ep 29 a good Dreamer player will start the game by putting up the desired auras (Phychopathic Episode, Disturbing Whispers), then burying the Nightmares on turn 1. When the Nightmares are returned to play they will still have the effects active.

The Governor's Proxy will give your models +2 Wp which will increase their odds of survival, but against the Alp's -1 Wp and the Insidious Maddness' to Wp Duels you will still take some wounds.

If you can get the first activation in the turn and you can have the Drill Sergeant make Hoffman immune to Slow. With a Df of 3 he could be slowed by an Alp melee strike. If the Drill Sergeant is expendable then you could also make one of the Guardians also immune to slow instead of the Sergeant. Ryle also has a Df of 3 making him vulnerable to Alp melee strikes.

If you don't mind eating Hoffman's activation you can also Companion Hoffman and the Drill Sergeant. Hoffman could have Assimilated Protect the first turn and have protected the Drill Sergeant the first turn (especially if the Nightmares started on the table). Other than this Hoffman is probably better off waiting to activate after the Alp-bomb.

EDIT:

In another thread someone brought up the Insidious Madness' Neverborn Whispers attack can strip immunities like Breach Psychosis off of a model.

Edited March 30, 2011 by MrNybbles