BananaHavock Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I have played about 10 or so games with Lucius so far, and some of them went relatively well, but most of them have seemed somewhat hopeless. The biggest problems I've found are that Lucius, being completely dependent on his crew, can be severely limited by taking out his best Issue Command targets (mainly the Austringer). Also, I've found that many of the models preform rather mediocre when not being commanded by Lucius. The model that comes to mind the most is the Guild Guard, but you can't really bother using Issue Commands on them when you have Austringers out. It seems that how the Austringers preform is relatively dependent on how the terrain is. If there is impassible terrain in range of where the rest of the action is going to take place, they can just hide and shoot birds at you all day long, but if not, its hard to keep them protected, especially with how weak they are. The other models that can be taken have never been nearly as productive as the Austringers are. The Captain can hit relatively hard and accurately, but suffers greatly in speed and range. Also, for his gun to do adequate damage, he needs a high card (11+)for his damage flip, yet Lucius himself is also dependent on those high cards (8+), so most of the time I feel that after cheating my Issue Commands, I don't have enough high cards to use for my crew. The Guild Guard, have just never really done much for me at all. They have average speed, and decent range, but they don't really have much going for them, especially when an Austringer is only one point more. Their Armor 1 is helpful, but with a atrocious DF 4, most (if not all) attacks are going to go through, taking done their 6 WD like its nothing. They have decent melee skills, but their shooting CB is pretty terrible. The Lawyer has the same problems that the Captain has. He's slow, and he's dependent on the same cards Lucius has, and in order for him to operate to his full potential, he needs to stand still, which means he'll most likely be relying on a Reinforcements in order to get where he needs to be. Also, he's and expensive model that completely defensive. This helps with the relative squishyness of the crew, but takes away from the offensive power, and since Lucius doesn't have much in the way of heavy hitters, this is a problem. Also, his abilities themselves are situational. Censure is dependent on how Control Card dependent the enemy is, and Cross Examination is obviously useless against a large portion of the crews. Lastly, there is Ryle. Ryle, despite being a model immune to buffs in a crew based around them, is always one of the, if not the highest preforming model every game. He seems to go perfectly with Lucius, since Lucius' ability to Issue Commands is limited, and Ryle is a model who is more then capable to preform adequately on his own. He's a rather fast model when you take into account his Socially Repressed, and since this is usually all you need to get into position, he'll be making three attacks almost every turn. Not only is this aspect of him good, but he's by far the heaviest hitter out of the available models. His gun, which being average in CB, has excellent range, and can do massive amounts of damage in a single shot. Like the Guild Guard, he suffers in DF, but unlike the GG, he has the wounds to offset this. Generally the core of what I take in 35ss games is: Lucius 2 Austringer 10ss 3 Guild Guard 12ss Ryle 8ss Leaving 9ss to play around with. Generally I'll put in one of the 7ss models (Captain/Lawyer), and 2ss in the cache, or take the Governors Proxy. While in theory having a fourth Issue Command seems nice, he again suffers from Lucius' card hogging. In games, the games themselves seem very rock-paper-scissors-esque. Seamus getting Treasure Hunt with me getting Assassinate seems almost impossible, due to their speed to get the treasure, and Seamus' Hard to Wound completely neuters my damage (as almost everything I has requires Severe damage to actually matter). Another difficult match up is the Viktorias, regardless of strategy. They are all so fast, and hit so hard and accurately, they can just tear through all of my models with ease, especially Misaki and the Viktorias themselves. I have recently realized that I am not utilizing the utility of the crew to its fullest (in fact I didn't even know what Halt! did until the last game I played), but I don't see how using all of these utility abilities could have a significant impact on the outcome of the game. Cordon is difficult to go off, and requires my weakest models to go out in front. Halt requires me to hit with a model that sucks at shooting. Menace requires me to sacrifice doing other actions with a costly model that can actually hurt things on its own. The Lawyer requires me to sacrifice damage for situational utility that depends on the same cards Lucius does. tl;dr I have read just about everything posted about Lucius, but I still can't see how to fully utilize this crew. Its full of easy to kill models that are dependent on one thing or another. I understand that its in no way a straight-forward crew, but it just seems to have many weaknesses, and no strength that stands out very much, if at all. Also, I apologize for the massive wall of text, and very much appreciate anybody who actually reads it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Three points I want to make. 1. Lucius is a Henchmen. Taking him with a master (Such as Lady Justice) allows you to not only broaden your model horizon, but also allows you to be lethally effective with Guardsmen(finally), as well as give whatever master you have a stupid awesome bonus to mobility (via Reinforcements) 2. His crew is stupid fast. Steal Relic is a must have Scheme to take. 3. When you do his Companion dealy to the Guild Guard Captain, you can effectively activate your entire crew in one go. (Though activating the entire crew is a terrible idea most of the time.) Guild Guard, when activated via Issue Command and that (0) action that gives +2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/whatever combat makes them real, real meanlike. We have a pretty beastly Lucius player at our LGS and he's really good at finageling situations that are hard to get out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaHavock Posted January 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Three points I want to make. 1. Lucius is a Henchmen. Taking him with a master (Such as Lady Justice) allows you to not only broaden your model horizon, but also allows you to be lethally effective with Guardsmen(finally), as well as give whatever master you have a stupid awesome bonus to mobility (via Reinforcements) This is a very valid point. Although the "broadening you model horizon", isn't quite true except for the addition of LadyJ. Since you'll need to spend a significant amount of points (if not all of them) to get the models that Lucius depends on. Therefore not leaving much room for other models. But, this really doesn't matter much, since LadyJ is fills the hole of the incredible beatstick, and makes those Guild Guard capable of hitting something. 2. His crew is stupid fast. Steal Relic is a must have Scheme to take. Haven't read much on the new schemes, but now that I know this, that should help a lot. 3. When you do his Companion dealy to the Guild Guard Captain, you can effectively activate your entire crew in one go. (Though activating the entire crew is a terrible idea most of the time.) Yeah, there have been times where activating multiple models would have definitely helps a considerable amount. Guild Guard, when activated via Issue Command and that (0) action that gives +2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/whatever combat makes them real, real meanlike. Problem with this is that as long as you have Austringers on the table, theres no point in Commanding the Guild Guard. We have a pretty beastly Lucius player at our LGS and he's really good at finageling situations that are hard to get out of. Does this player usually run Lucius as the Master, or as a Henchmen? Also, thanks, the idea of taking Lucius as a Henchmen and/or doing Steal Relic definitely makes me see some value in Lucius I hadn't seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonkin Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Just got Lucius at the weekend and haven't had a game with him yet. Looking forward to seeing what I can do with him. Any other tips are most welcome. Also should probably post in the Tactica: Lucius thread. D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpowder saint Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Does this player usually run Lucius as the Master, or as a Henchmen? Also, thanks, the idea of taking Lucius as a Henchmen and/or doing Steal Relic definitely makes me see some value in Lucius I hadn't seen before. I'm the Lucius Player Sandwhich was talking about :] [[.don't know if that means anything, I made the Lucius Tatica if you want to take a look the guys in that thread have alot of usefull ideas too.]] Anyway Personally, whether I take him as a Master or a Henchman really depends on my mood lol. As a Henchman he's mostly Support. Reinforcements, Guild Intelligence. Combine it with the Watcher that says to look at the top two cards, you can take a good grip on your hand and fate date. As a Master he's, well... alot of things, I play him more as a Master and I still find things that surprise me with him alone. Personally when you run him alone 5 models make a large difference. 1 Guild Guard Captain 4 Guild Guard. It seems costly, I know, and it may not have the range of the Austringers but just follow me on this one. You activate Lucius, His Totem, and the Guard Captain. His totem does whatever, then depending on the situation Lucius or the Captain will activate. the Captain will make it so a single guardsman activates after he does... then, Patrol. (2) activate 3 guardsman. This is where your alpha strike comes in. Not only are you beating people with the Captain, but now before any retaliation, 3 guardsman start taking shots, or swings. Positioning is pretty important though. Another thing you might want to try is taking Lawyers, Censure, Cross Examination, Defense and Closing Arguments are ALL spells I use all the time. Especially defense on the Captain, Hard to Wound 3 with Armor 1, Ten wounds!? Just run his fat ass in there and start swinging with that Axe! Or Menece, Ca 8 with 10" range, yes; please! lol Personally I never take Ryle with Lucius, he Never pulls his own weight unless his brother is around. Also Lucius/Hoffman is brutal but that's a whole nother story lol, and so he just becomes an 8 point sink that soaks up bullets but when they find out I don't do anything with him besides 1-6 damage depending on the flip then the threat is defanged, and then ignored. anyway... sorry for the rant hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaHavock Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 1 Guild Guard Captain 4 Guild Guard. It seems costly, I know, and it may not have the range of the Austringers but just follow me on this one. You activate Lucius, His Totem, and the Guard Captain. His totem does whatever, then depending on the situation Lucius or the Captain will activate. the Captain will make it so a single guardsman activates after he does... then, Patrol. (2) activate 3 guardsman. This is where your alpha strike comes in. Not only are you beating people with the Captain, but now before any retaliation, 3 guardsman start taking shots, or swings. Positioning is pretty important though. For two points less you could replace 3 of the Guild Guard for 2 Austringers. You end up with the same amount of models attacking (since with the 4 GG, one of their activations is wasted on activating the others), since you can use Deliver Orders to activate them all simultaneously. So not only do you save points, but its guaranteed that the Austringers will do more damage then the Guild Guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 ... but its guaranteed that the Austringers will do more damage then the Guild Guard. Hardly guaranteed in any sort of fashion.. 3 guard have a higher damage potential than 2 austringers. Especially once you get into melee. Austringers have a high Cb, sure. But a low weak damage aswell and no on damage (unless you're fighting Silurids or Gremlins..). The pseudo-companion of Austringers drains cards aswell by the way so I wouldn't rely on it. Also.. I wouldn't use 11+ cards for casting Lucius spells.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talos Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I posted my thoughts on lucius after my first game on the tactics thread. After posting them I have had some more thought on the game and I think I can see what I did wrong and how to do better with him in the future. I relied to much on issue command yes it is good but don't waste all your cards on trying to get it off. If you have some 8s, or 9s then yea go for it. But try and save cards and get your guys into a position for a good strike. I am still not sold on the Lawyer and I need a few more games to get the captain to work, I found him to slow. Should have used reinforcements on him. I have a game day coming on up in March which is going to be story based and consistences of 3 games. 20ss,30ss and 40ss. I what to take Lucius but not sure if he will work as a master at those point levels. Edit: Any chance anybody could post up some battle reports involving lucius, would love to see how other people play him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenjaminBullet Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I am playing Lucius as a henchman and lady j as the master in a league at my lgs. My list is... Lady J- +5ss Lucius- 10 Nino- 7 Austringer- 5 Guild Guard x3- 12 I have not won all my games but he is more than viable. Guild Guards are awesome in pretty much all situations and you should not underestimate them. + flip to damage with pistol, crit hit with sword at cb 6 and armor one is nothing to scoff at. I think your doing what I did when I first started which was to rely entirely too much on my austringer. they are nice but far too often don't do enough damage to matter. Lucius himself is a magnificent tarpiter. I was playing dreamer the other day and after my Guild guards took down LCB in a turn it was time to go work on strat and schemes. Lucius got into combat with a copalius and two nightmares and went into full defense mode at one hit point. the neg twist from governors authority made them unable to cheat and with my +2 flip to defense Lucius went three turns until the end of the game without getting hit once(turn 8 btw). in the meantime I just went along to finish my schemes. Lost 6 to 4 but hell of a game! My point is that Lucius can get the job done, you just need to play it smart and not discount valuable members of your team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozzy Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 He is capable of some defense but by no means a tarpit..Dont believe his cb is that high I could just walk away from him if needed..Also people need to remember focused shots channeled spell and paired weapons etc.. avoid his neg flip. That said I like lucious with any of the guild masters and some guild guard..I also enjoy the captain for some alpha striking if neccisary and adds that beef to your line. The lawyer I don't like for reasons stated above..Don't like splitting cars between models... I do like lady j as a counter charge measure..stay back and be pecked a part by austrungers and guard or go forward to a waiting lady j and her wave of pain (which can be sling shotted forward depending on placement.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Hardly guaranteed in any sort of fashion.. 3 guard have a higher damage potential than 2 austringers. Especially once you get into melee. One of those 3 guard are not shooting as they have done an all action, so its two guard vs 2 Austringer. And I'm guessing his claim is for a shooting attack. Granted this is for the alpha strike damage, in a non alpha strike the third guard will increase the damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaHavock Posted January 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Hardly guaranteed in any sort of fashion.. 3 guard have a higher damage potential than 2 austringers. Especially once you get into melee. The thing is its not 2 Austringers, its 2 Austringers and a Guild Guard. In the original list, there was 4 Guild Guard, one of which gave them all companion, therefore unable to attack. In my list, for 2ss less, you can replace 3 Guild Guard with 2 Austringers. In both cases, you have the same number of models attacking (3 GG or 1GG and 2 Aust), but since one Austringer will do more in shooting then a Guild Guard, not only do you save points, but you also increase your overall damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 You obviously wouldn't use Patrol all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oozeboss Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 For a 35ss tournament on 20 February, I'm looking at combining both sides of the argument: Lucius Lawyer Guild Guard Captain 3 Guild Guard 2 Austringers (I'm not sure whether to add the Governor's Proxy + 3ss or just a 5ss pool.) I also have Ryle up my sleeve (we can have up to 45ss from which to choose forces for each round), although the general consensus here seems to be along the lines of "nice model/ shame about the abilities". I'm thinking that Lucius & the Austringers gives me some genuine long range firepower, while the Captain + 3 Guild Guard can take care of anything within 8". And the Lawyer seems to me to be just plain insidious! So am I heading in the right direction here? :lucius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talos Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I would test your list a few times before the tourny. After my first game with Lucius I thought he was useless but I think I just played him wrong. The lawyer looks good on paper but I find he needs to many high cards. So I would try him out and see if you like him, you may be able to get him to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Monkey Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 If you could let me know what that list is like oozeboss it would be greatly appreciated. Got the exact list on the painting table at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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