Levy Changed! (a thread by Lalo)

[tadaka]

This is really bothering you, isn't it?

I know you did not direct this at me. But personaly them not being foward on v2 cards + this levi change will probably end up with me leaving the game. Wyrd is pissing me off the past few weeks.

[Justin]

I know you did not direct this at me. But personaly them not being foward on v2 cards + this levi change will probably end up with me leaving the game. Wyrd is pissing me off the past few weeks.

I was referring to how I tagged the quote. How I tagged the quote seems to be really bothering him.

I changed it.

[tadaka]

Ya but im in a bad mood so im QQ

[Justin]

Also at the poke daycare you can breed any pokemon with a ditto. So the lifecycle of the Cubone MUST revolve around the ditto somehow.

Yeah...

...I knew that.

[tadaka]

So who wants to buy a large levi crew.

[Justin]

Ya but im in a bad mood so im QQ

Alright, on a serious note...

If it bothers you that much, (which is understandable, not talking down to you here) why don't you just step back and take a breather?

It's usually the best thing to do when a person is worked up in general.

There might be combos with Levy you haven't seen yet, that necessitated this change.

Maybe there are cards we haven't seen.

Maybe if you take a break and come back, the new errata will have come out, or maybe somebody will have seen some great new combo for Levy.

So step back, relax. Enjoy yourself some sad baby Cubones, and log back on in about two weeks and see what the haps are.

It's a good game. It's a generally good company. They have a small staff. See what happens.

[Rathnard]

No alice can not. Waifs have masical extension but it is for the most part useless. Half of levi spells take 2 suits. Those spells are stupid hard to get off. The other part is they only have 3 wd. Casting some of his other spells are deadly to them but they cant cast it at all because they cant kill them selves with spells. For example makeing another waif is not valid.

A model can still cast a spell that would kill it, since it's death is not guaranteed (ie. you still need to successfully cast the spell to lose the Wds).

Furthermore, if the Waif is sacrificed after casting the spell then it will still come back in the closing phase (provided there's a spare waif still alive). So you now have two possible scenarios;

Scenario A:

1. Waif #1 uses empty being to summon Waif #2.

2. Levi stays alive this turn

3. Closing Phase - Waif #2 Sacrificed, Waifs #1 and #2 are placed back near Levi and you now have two Waifs, without using Levi's AP.

Scenario B:

1. Waif #1 uses empty being to summon Waif #2.

2. Levi dies this turn

3. Closing Phase - Levi Replaces Waif #2 and Waif #1 is placed back near Levi. You still have only 1 Waif, but you didn't need to use Levi's AP to do it.

Sacrificing your Waif to make another Waif isn't always going to be a great idea, but it's an option that should be useful for certain situations.

So the spell that makes a Waif - does it require two suits or just the one? If it's two suits then the above becomes much harder, but you can probably still use it in combination with Deaths lessons to get an extra Waif in the first turn of two.

Apologies for the dumb question, but I don't have the rulebook with me today.

Tadaka, I understand you're annoyed, but I think you should at least look at ways to get around the change and actually try it out for a few games before giving up entirely.

[Ratty]

I actually like the change, Obviously Wyrd felt that Levi needed to lose a bit of power. This change means that there are a few more ways to shut Levi down, Corpse Counter denial, casting effects like poison onto Waifs so they pass onto Levi when he replaces it. Which means that the only tactic is not just I need to kill Levi and the 2 Waifs. If it's too much of a nerf we will live to see.

In general these things see-saw, generally due to player experience as much as getting the balance wrong. When a game starts players are coming in fresh, finesse Masters generally lose a lot and so they are seen to be underpowered. They will generally get a bit of a boost, which then leads them to be overpowered when people learn to use them. Which means they get a nerf. And it will see-saw back and forward a few times until the balance is right. I believe we have seen exactly this happen with Levi.

BTW that would only work if Ditto's remain in the form they take on Death. That way Cubones could breed Dittos to make up for the female deficit in their populations. Then you could pair the Males with the Ditto females and then slaughter them for their skulls.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Ratty

[tadaka]

I have tried this back when it was just place. I did not like it then and now it kills a waif on top of the old change. I have posted the many ways this is an offense a defense and a mobility nurf all in 1. The only thing I can figure is levi is being turned to crap to some how balance the fact he has a lot of options for crew.

Here is the core of my issue with this.

The masters who are most dificult for levi to handle are now going to tear him apart. Levi and waifs are VERY squishy. The only reason he had any durability was you had to kill 3 models in a turn. Now thats not true.

Kirai, colladi and dreamer will stomp a mud hole in levi's backside. I chalange any one to try and play levi with these rules vs some one who knows how to play them and wants to kill levi. They will smoke him so fast its not funny. Highly moble crews will distroy him now and he will have 0 recorse.

I have put a lot of money and time in to getting a large range of options for him. They are not nurfing him they are changeing how he works compleatly. I dont see them saying hey im going to offer to replace all those models you bought to find a master you like. If i bought a car and 6 months down the road they came and replaced my car with a pinto i would have the same issue. I paid for one thing and im now getting another. They could have nurfed a lot of things and still made him play the same.

Lower his spell damage.

Change his damage to actual damage not wounds.

Make his damage flip based not a set amount.

Remove casting mastery

Lower his wounds

There are a ton of options this one blows period.

I said it before and I will say it again I am not saying the guy is not on the Op side of the scale. But this change is beyond dumb.

A model can still cast a spell that would kill it, since it's death is not guaranteed (ie. you still need to successfully cast the spell to lose the Wds).

Tadaka, I understand you're annoyed, but I think you should at least look at ways to get around the change and actually try it out for a few games before giving up entirely.

[tadaka]

I cant remember if that is a one suit or two version.

So the spell that makes a Waif - does it require two suits or just the one? If it's two suits then the above becomes much harder, but you can probably still use it in combination with Deaths lessons to get an extra Waif in the first turn of two.

[tadaka]

You may live to see it but I wont. They put this retarded change through and im done its BS.

When a player is to good at golf they give him a few points cap not chop off his damn arm.

Rat I know you know what your doing with kirai. Go set up a table and see how easy you find it to kill him off when you want. The guy is toast vs crews like her that are very mobile.

I actually like the change, Obviously Wyrd felt that Levi needed to lose a bit of power. This change means that there are a few more ways to shut Levi down, Corpse Counter denial, casting effects like poison onto Waifs so they pass onto Levi when he replaces it. Which means that the only tactic is not just I need to kill Levi and the 2 Waifs. If it's too much of a cuddle we will live to see.

In general these things see-saw, generally due to player experience as much as getting the balance wrong. When a game starts players are coming in fresh, finesse Masters generally lose a lot and so they are seen to be underpowered. They will generally get a bit of a boost, which then leads them to be overpowered when people learn to use them. Which means they get a cuddle. And it will see-saw back and forward a few times until the balance is right. I believe we have seen exactly this happen with Levi.

BTW that would only work if Ditto's remain in the form they take on Death. That way Cubones could breed Dittos to make up for the female deficit in their populations. Then you could pair the Males with the Ditto females and then slaughter them for their skulls.

[Rathnard]

*sigh*

If you want to quit the game then that's fine. But I've been playing wargames for 14 years now, and I've seen this sort of knee-jerk reaction to new rules so often that I really don't take it seriously any more.

Maybe you're right. Maybe Levi is now so unplayable that not even the most experienced player has a chance of winning games with him. The nerf undoubtably makes him trickier to use, and his need to keep making Waifs if he wants to keep dieing makes him more vulnerable to crews that can disrupt that.

But honestly, right now I think you've made your decision about Levi's playability before you've even given it a serious try. You seem unwilling to look at how you might be able to adapt Levi's playstyle to suit the rule change, and have instead chosen to write multiple posts bemoaning how Wyrd has ruined your Master and your intention to quit the game as a result.

So right now you have a choice. You can either give up on Levi right now and leave the rest of us to figure out his new dynamic and how best to deal with it, or you could start helping us with some positive, constructive comments on how you think Levi players could deal with his V2 rules (aside from "write a letter to wyrd", which you're welcome to do anyway).

It's your choice, but in any case we really don't need to keep hearing how you're quiting the game.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Rathnard

[Q'iq'el]

When a player is to good at golf they give him a few points cap not chop off his damn arm.

Always wondered about that. Why not chop off the arms? The game could perhaps become slightly more engaging for the audience?

And while we're at it, let's also start cutting off digits for unwarranted emotional outbursts on these forums. I've heard getting live transmissions via UStream is a child play, so we can all participate!

[tadaka]

SIGH

I dont want to quit the game. I want them to not put in a change that will not jack him up to no end. Again I have posted I tried him a number of times back when this crap first came up. They changed him and then changed it back because people said hey THIS IS STUPID.

It is not a knee-jerk reaction this has been played and sucks.

*sigh*

If you want to quit the game then that's fine. But I've been playing wargames for 14 years now, and I've seen this sort of knee-jerk reaction to new rules so often that I really don't take it seriously any more.

[tadaka]

Q i asked you to not respond to me. Please stop.

Always wondered about that. Why not chop off the arms? The game could perhaps become slightly more engaging for the audience?

And while we're at it, let's also start cutting off digits for unwarranted emotional outbursts on these forums. I've heard getting live transmissions via UStream is a child play, so we can all participate!

[Justin]

ALL CUBONES WEAR THE SKULLS OF THEIR MOTHERS

[Justin]

SIGH

I dont want to quit the game. I want them to not put in a change that will not jack him up to no end. Again I have posted I tried him a number of times back when this crap first came up. They changed him and then changed it back because people said hey THIS IS STUPID.

It is not a knee-jerk reaction this has been played and sucks.

I'm not going to try to convince you not to quit the game. Because...I don't care. And I don't see why anybody else would.

I'm not trying to be harsh. But I don't know you and, hey, if you're happier not playing, who am I to stop you?

But I believe this was changed and changed back because it was posted before it was fully discussed by the dev team. NOT because of any backlash from the players.

I don't think any amount of posts will change this.

It is what it is.

Maybe he's crap, maybe he's not. But whatever he is, I don't think he's changing. At least not anytime soon. Some masters are good, some are...not so good. So, even if he was nerfed, I still don't see it as a big deal.

However, I think you do have one very valid point. The V2 cards should not have hit the shelves before the errata. People should know what they are buying, and they should not be forced to hunt through forum posts and packs of new models to figure it out. A V2 rulebook with all the rules in one place would have been preferable. Or a pack of cards with ALL the V2 cards. Or, at the very least, the errata should have hit before the V2 cards. This is disappointing to me. But, I also have hope that it will be remedied. And the guys at Wyrd are pretty smart, I do not expect them to repeat this situation. So, just hold tight, we'll figure it out.

Unless you want to quit. Then, by all means, do so.

How much for the Levi crew?

[Rathnard]

SIGH

I dont want to quit the game. I want them to not put in a change that will not jack him up to no end. Again I have posted I tried him a number of times back when this crap first came up. They changed him and then changed it back because people said hey THIS IS STUPID.

It is not a knee-jerk reaction this has been played and sucks.

So what are you going to do about it then? As Lalo says this change is unlikley to go away and complaining is getting you nowhere. So as far as I can see you can either try and adapt, or just give up and leave us to discuss how best to use Levi with the new rules.

[Ratty]

Rat I know you know what your doing with kirai. Go set up a table and see how easy you find it to kill him off when you want. The guy is toast vs crews like her that are very mobile.

I hardly think putting a experienced player against it's best case scenario opponent is a good way to gauge a crew.

Put a Good Kirai player in playing as Levi, and see how they do against an average Kirai player. See how well they do knowing all of the opponents crew weaknesses.

[Q'iq'el]

Q i asked you to not respond to me. Please stop.

I'm afraid it's not in your power. The reason why one doesn't post emotional outbursts on forums is that someone right now may be on the verge of quitting the game because he cannot beat Levi. Fortunately this potential someone has better manners and isn't posting it on the forum, but is his opinion any less valid than yours?

If the cuddle to Levi is too big, they'll reverse it in couple of months or compensate otherwise. There have been changes as fundamental as this in the past and hardly anyone would argue the affected masters have become unplayable (and where it really hurt, it's been reversed after a while), so don't be surprised most of us tend to trust designers' decision more than emotional outbursts.

You turn a thread with potential for reasonable and interesting argument into whinefest and then tell those who complain about your attitude to stop posting? How about you stop?

[huntroll]

I think one sentence in the errata of the already double (or triple?) errate-ed V2 cards could solve this situation:

Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, replace a Hallow Waif with this model during the Closing Phase. The Hollow Waif is sacrificed instead of removed from play. Sacrifice any other Hallow Waifs in play. Discard your Hand and draw up to your Crew's Maximum Hand Size.

[MrNybbles]

The V1 Leveticus would require you to kill Leveticus and ALL the Hallow Waifs he had in play on the same turn because they can all respawn thanks to the Waif's Shackled and his Eternally Shackled. In a Brawl that would mean you must kill up to 1 Leveticus and 4 Waifs just to keep Leveticus from comming back. That is a lot of work.

With the V2 Leveticus the Waif population can now permanently go back down. It may actually be better now to keep Leveticus out of the front lines and let the other models do the work. There are a number of fast or powerful models Leveticus can take so he should be quite flexible. Canine Remains also make for cheap and useful swarm units. The Dog's Rabies trigger also lowers Wp making Entropic Transformation easier to cast on an enemy.

I think Entropic Claws attack instead of melee attack may be a copy-and-paste error from the Ashes and Dust version of Desolate Warping. This is probably worth pointing out to the Rules Marshals, but I have very little luck getting them to understand the issue 90% of the time I post. The one time I got a straight answer out of them is when Wodschow politely pointed out the Rules Marshal answered a question that was never asked and the answer had nothing to do with the question asked in the original post. Even then it took a few posts to get it right. You can see this in The Dreamer's Shadowy Form refers to what form of Action? where the same question had to be asked 3 times just to get one answer.

@tadaka & Rathnard: The CC for Entropic Transformation to create Waifs is 14:tomes. This is listed in Lalochezia's OP in this thread.

@ Lalochezia: Sad Baby Cubones are eatable so they belong in the Cooking section of the forum with the marinated babies, not the Malifaux matters section! Now let's hunt us some tasty Cubones for the future of humanity and for the lack of the Cubone's future!

[Q'iq'el]

I think one sentence in the errata of the already double (or triple?) errate-ed V2 cards could solve this situation:

Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, replace a Hallow Waif with this model during the Closing Phase. The Hollow Waif is sacrificed instead of removed from play. Sacrifice any other Hallow Waifs in play. Discard your Hand and draw up to your Crew's Maximum Hand Size.

Isn't sacrifice one of the ways to get removed from play? (which makes the sentence self-contradictory).

Besides, replacement is already a defined in the rules way to remove model from play. You cannot sacrifice something, which has been replaced. You could place Levi, and then sacrifice the Waif, as far as the wording goes, but that probably isn't what the designers are going for (because replacement means, as it has been pointed out already, that the freshly arriving Levi will inherit poison counters and other effects from the Waif it replaces. Palcement/sacrifice combo would have no such penalty).

[tadaka]

Rath try looking at it from my side for a moment.

Wyrd makes a change that takes the o say 500 bucks I have spent on levi models and makes them so I no longer enjoy them.

They are all ready on my bad side because of the way they are releaseing the new rules. They should not release the v2 cards with out makeing them totaly open for every one to see.

They are not just nurfing levi. This is a compleat and total change of how he works. I bought models from them because I like his play style. That playstyle no longer exists.

Now for some reason I am told I should shut up and take it. Its some how wrong for me to say hey wyrd this is stupid. If wal-mart sold you a product you were not satisfied with would you take it back? Talk to them ask them to make it right? I did that they had all day to say some thing any thing. We are not done looking at him, Suck it by some one elses models, Other changes to the rules will make him work. Nothing I was ignored and now when I speak up im a bad guy for saying I am not a satisfied customer.

[huntroll]

Isn't sacrifice one of the ways to get removed from play? (which makes the sentence self-contradictory).

Besides, replacement is already a defined in the rules way to remove model from play. You cannot sacrifice something, which has been replaced. You could place Levi, and then sacrifice the Waif, as far as the wording goes, but that probably isn't what the designers are going for (because replacement means, as it has been pointed out already, that the freshly arriving Levi will inherit poison counters and other effects from the Waif it replaces. Palcement/sacrifice combo would have no such penalty).

Sacrificed Waifs return to the game due to Shackled. But according to the V2 cards and the upcoming Errata, Waifs whom Levi replaced when he died are not sacrificed, so they won't.