Viktoria's in a brawl

[Matamane]

It says viktoria can be paired with any master if yo decrease the ss pool, but can a brawl with Viktorias and say...Nicodem hire non mercenary models?

[Wodschow]

If you're thinking of Viktorias limitation on only being able to hire Mercenaries that ability only applies in Scraps.

So yes you could hire non-Mercenaries in a Brawl with Nicodem/Viktoria.

[Matamane]

d'oh...

I should have seen that.

[gunpowder saint]

but wait!

Nicodem now is rocking out with the Viki's

and he wants to hire a Freikorps Librarian, does he pay 7? or 9?

[Wodschow]

Since you'd be taking the Ressurectionists as your main faction and nothing states that you're allowed to take mercenaries at normal cost, you would indeed have to pay the +2 out of faction cost.

This whole cross-faction-Master-pairing is somewhat a mess though.

Back in Book1 it was ruled that a Neverborn Brawl crew with Zoraida and Jones could hire Gremlins without paying the +1SS.

There's no mention on the matter in the revised encounter section of Book2 however.

This suggests to me that Zoraida and Jones will have to pay +1SS again and so will every other cross-factional master pair when hiring the out-of-faction minions for the sidekick masters.

Also note that the only reason you can bring all the Gremlins in a Zoraida and Jones' crew is that all but the Mosqitos are below 4Wp and the Mosqitos have a rule allowing them to be taken with Som'er.

Nicodem and Viktoria would for instance still be limited by the 'two mercenaries' rule.

And given that V2 Viktorias have the Mercenary trait I'm not even sure whether you could actually bring the Librarian when taking those two Masters together.. Hmm..

[Matamane]

Wait, why +2ss?

I know it's +1 for mercenaries, but oof costs an additional 1ss?

[MrNybbles]

And given that V2 Viktorias have the Mercenary trait I'm not even sure whether you could actually bring the Librarian when taking those two Masters together.. Hmm..

The Victoria are ALMOST in the same boat as Performer and Mannequin as you get two models with both. However with the Performer and Mannequin only the Performer is a Mercenary.

As for the Victoria the "Sisters" Ability states that you hire this model as a master you start the game with two of them. To me this means the Victoria's fill one Mercenary slot and it gives you two models.

Wait, why +2ss?

I know it's +1 for mercenaries, but oof costs an additional 1ss?

The Librarian has an Ability called Elite Mercenary which makes them cost +2ss instead of +1ss when hired as a Mercenary.

[Pox]

can't pair up levi with victoria in a brawl anyway - since crews containing levi can only contain undead, souless and constructs (no matter if it is a scrap or a brawl.)

best bet for pairing up in a brawl is simply to get the freekorps, as the vics suffer horribly from double masters due to the fact that they loose SS for doing so.

[gunpowder saint]

wow... looking at the book now my WHOLE Group has been playing it wrong, we went with a Sonnia Criid/Von Schill paring once, had two Freikorpman, and a Specialist and like one or two Witchlings.

It didn't seem to make too big of an impact on the games but that does mean that the Viki's and Von Schill really only work well with eachother ya know?

[MrNybbles]

wow... looking at the book now my WHOLE Group has been playing it wrong, we went with a Sonnia Criid/Von Schill paring once, had two Freikorpman, and a Specialist and like one or two Witchlings.

It didn't seem to make too big of an impact on the games but that does mean that the Viki's and Von Schill really only work well with eachother ya know?

Von Schill limits your choices of hiring Mercenaries to only Special Forces(Freikorps) Mercenaries, but you may hire an unlimited number of them. This means Von Schill works well with most masters that don't have a hiring limitation of their own (such as Leveticus).

If your faction is Guild and you hire Sonnia Creed and Von Schill as a second Leader (or as a Henchman) then you can hire any Guild models and also hire any number of Special Forces(Freikorps) Mercenaries, but no other Mercenaries.

The Victorias can only have Von Schill as a Henchman if your faction is Outcasts because the Victorias are Mercenary Masters (it's on their v2 cards).

[Wodschow]

The Victoria are ALMOST in the same boat as Performer and Mannequin as you get two models with both. However with the Performer and Mannequin only the Performer is a Mercenary.

You missed my point, I wasn't referring to the 'two mercenaries' rule, I was referring to the fact that Viktoria isn't a Freikorps.. Real question is whether Viktoria is hired 'as a mercenary' when teaming up with another faction or not, haven't seen her V2 card so don't know if there's a new wording on her troublesome 'For Money' ability.

@gunpowder: Von Schill have a special rule that allows you to exceed the normal 'two mercenaries' restriction, so the proposed list would be viable, albeit a bit expensive at +1SS for all the out-of-faction models.

[MrNybbles]

You missed my point, I wasn't referring to the 'two mercenaries' rule, I was referring to the fact that Viktoria isn't a Freikorps.. Real question is whether Viktoria is hired 'as a mercenary' when teaming up with another faction or not, haven't seen her V2 card so don't know if there's a new wording on her troublesome 'For Money' ability.

Sorry about that.

I talked to my local Henchman and he said that the Victorias are hired as Masters, not as Mercenaries so they can be taken. The Mercenary characteristic just means they can be hired as out-of-faction Masters but you don't never them as a Mercenary.

Page 96 of the Core Rulebook says "You may hire Masters from your chosen Faction or Masters with the Mercenary characteristic."

Why would For Money (v2) cause any problems is a Brawl with Victorias and Nicodem? (Yes, I have the V2 cards of their box set). The v1 For Money looks the same to me in the rulebook. No mention of hiring them as Mercenaries at all.

For Money (V2)

Crews Containing this model can only hire Mercenary models during Scraps. This model may join a Crew with any other Master in a Brawl, bur reduce its Crew's available Soulstones by 5.

But you were talking about a Brawl with Victoria and Nicodem. You can then take any Special Forces(Freikorps) who then forbids you hiring non-Freikorps Mercenaries (but the Victorias are hired as Masters). So yes, you can take a Librarian with Nicodem and Victoria.

[Wodschow]

Well your local Henchman's opinions means just as much as ours on this matter..

'For Money' is relevant because it tells you that you can include Viktoria with another Master without mentioning her being a Mercenary.

Even if she didn't have Mercenary she could still be taken by another Master thanks to that rule. Thus I believe she is in fact not hired as a Mercenary.

At least that's my impression of how being hired 'as a Mercenary' works. (The only way to bring the model is through the Mercenary trait, if there's an alternative way you're not hiring it 'as a Mercenary').

[Matamane]

In the pairing of Nicodem/Viktoria, if I were to hire a convict gunslinger, it would cost 5, not 6 correct? I am hiring it not as a mercenary, but as an outcast model in the crew

[MrNybbles]

Well your local Henchman's opinions means just as much as ours on this matter..

Thank you for only acknowledging the story part and not the rules part. This time I'll try to make the RAW as crystal clear as I can because that is what matters (unless something gets an errata).

For Money: Crews Containing this model can only hire Mercenary models during Scraps. This model may join a Crew with any other Master in a Brawl, bur reduce its Crew's available Soulstones by 5.

"You may hire Masters from your chosen Faction or Masters with the Mercenary characteristic."

In a Scrap Victoria may only hire Mercenary models, but it does NOT say you hire them as Mercenaries. In a Scrap with the faction Outcasts and the Master Victoria would you hire Bishop and Johan as a Mercenary? No, you hire Bishop and Johan as Outcasts. The Mercenary characteristic is not used to hire them.

It's the same for the hiring of Masters. The rulebook says you may hire Masters with the Mercenary characteristic out-of-faction, but you are not hiring them as Mercenaries, you are hiring them as Masters.

Now just in case you think that because Victoria is both a Master and a Mercenary so you hire her as both, you don't. Remember Victoria hiring Bishop as a member of the same faction? He's not just an Outcast, he's also a Mercenary, but you don't hire him as both as a member of the same faction AND as a Mercenary.

If you don't believe me that you don't hire Victoria as a Mercenary when hiring her out of faction, fine, but please at least post where in the rulebooks it says you hire a Master as a Mercenary. I only ask this because I already posted above where you hire them as a Master in the rulebook.

Both Victoria and Leveticus can both be hired out-of-faction as Masters which is why they both have the Mercenary characteristic. Adding the characteristic to Victoria didn't change anything. You hire exactly the same as before, as a Master.

In the pairing of Nicodem/Viktoria, if I were to hire a convict gunslinger, it would cost 5, not 6 correct? I am hiring it not as a mercenary, but as an outcast model in the crew

No. If your faction is Resurrectionists and you hire Nicodem and Victoria as your Masters then the Convict Gunslinger is hired as an out-of-faction Mercenary and would cost 6ss.

[gunpowder saint]

because of the new encounter rules you must state a single faction that you are playing, even in a brawl. IE 60 point brawl, what's your faction?

I'm playing Guild

okay I'll play Ressurectionists

I'll Hire C. Hoffman and Ramos, [[because of the arcanist ties special rule allowing me to hire a anarchist construct w/ blah blah, well Ramos is a construct so I can hire him]]

you hire Nicodem and Viki's because you can lol

I try and hire the Soulstone Miner and It will still cost 7 points due to the out of faction costs. I also Will Not be able to hire the Gunsmith due to the fact that he is not a Guild Model.

You can hire the convict gunslinger but because your Main Faction is Ressers you still have to pay +1 SS for his cost. Also if you take a Freikorman then you are restricted to hire only friekorpman due to their special rule. This however does not make it so you can't use to Vik's as they "Join" your crew, they are not hired. [[but neither is ramos for this example]]

[Wodschow]

I'm not sure what happened here, if you read my post you'd see that I basically deducted the same as you in what I consider a logical and 'true to the RAW'-way.

However just for the fun of it let's argue? ¬_¬

(I'll really just state the same all over again..)

NOWHERE in the rulebook is it ever stated what it means to 'hire a model as a mercenary' - the ONLY time the phrase is used is in the Freikorps' rules.

So obviously I can't find any rule that says Masters are 'hired as mercenaries', because there isn't even such a rule for Minions..

You're referring to Book1 crew hiring rules, I suggest you go by the Book2 ones as that makes a whole lot more sense. You should notice that there's no specific reference on Mercenary masters when selecting your crew, so your argument on saying Viktoria is hired 'as a Master' makes little to no sense (I doubt it ever did even in Book1 as I don't hire my Minions 'as Minions' either).

If you hire a generic Master with the Mercenary trait from outside your own faction (and that you couldn't do so by any abilities such as those Hoffman,Kirai,Nicodem,Zoraida,Leveticus or Colette have (might have missed some, but there should be enough to get the point through)) - then that means you are relying on the 'Mercenary' trait to hire said Master, thus it is to my belief that you are in fact hiring him 'as a Mercenary'.

It is the exact same logic by which it was ruled that when taking Bishop in a Viktoria crew he isn't taken 'as a Mercenary', where as he is in a crew lead by Marcus.

When pairing Viktoria up with another Master you do NOT rely on her being a Mercenary to include her, you make use of her 'For Money' ability - thus she isn't hired 'as a Mercenary', although this interpretation means that the V2 change was rather redundant (which makes me believe it is wrong and that she is in fact hired 'as a Mercenary').

Edit - Which again is why I said 'For Money' was a troublesome rule, because it's not clear whether Viktoria is hired as a Mercenary or not, and therefore uncertain whether you can include any Freikorps with her and a non-Outcast Master in a Brawl.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Wodschow

[MrNybbles]

This however does not make it so you can't use to Vik's as they "Join" your crew, they are not hired. [[but neither is ramos for this example]]

Most of what you said looks correct except for the bit about not hiring Masters.

You may hire Masters from your chosen Faction or Masters with the Mercenary characteristic.

Masters do not cost any Soulstones to hire.

Both Rulebooks clearly say Masters are hired. They really are hired. I don't remember reading anywhere about Master's being able to 'Join' a crew.

When pairing Viktoria up with another Master you do NOT rely on her being a Mercenary to include her, you make use of her 'For Money' ability - thus she isn't hired 'as a Mercenary', although this interpretation means that the V2 change was rather redundant (which makes me believe it is wrong and that she is in fact hired 'as a Mercenary').

Edit - Which again is why I said 'For Money' was a troublesome rule, because it's not clear whether Viktoria is hired as a Mercenary or not, and therefore uncertain whether you can include any Freikorps with her and a non-Outcast Master in a Brawl.

I just view the addition of the Mercenary characteristic as Wyrd's attempt to make it more clear that she can be hired out-of-faction like Leveticus and this confusion isn't intended. 'For Money' hasn't changed and works the same as before so we should be on the same page on this. Like C. Hoffman hiring Coppelius via Unexplained Connection or or Colette hiring Johan via Union Labor it's a special ability hire. You've successfully poked holes in all my other arguments so hopefully this one will hold.

If not then why not post in the Rules Forum "Can a non-Outcast faction with Victoria as a Master take any of the Freikorps Mercenaries as Mercenaries or does the Freikorps Mercenary ability prevent this?"

[Matamane]

So the 2 mercenary rule would prevent me from running say 4 desperate mercs even though I have an outcast master?

[MrNybbles]

So the 2 mercenary rule would prevent me from running say 4 desperate mercs even though I have an outcast master?

This is true only if your faction is a non-Outcast faction. Also, the Victorias don't count toward the 2 Mercenary limit because it only applies to Minions in both rulebooks and Victoria is a Master.

[Ciaran]

This whole cross-faction-Master-pairing is somewhat a mess though.

Back in Book1 it was ruled that a Neverborn Brawl crew with Zoraida and Jones could hire Gremlins without paying the +1SS.

There's no mention on the matter in the revised encounter section of Book2 however.

This suggests to me that Zoraida and Jones will have to pay +1SS again and so will every other cross-factional master pair when hiring the out-of-faction minions for the sidekick masters.

Also note that the only reason you can bring all the Gremlins in a Zoraida and Jones' crew is that all but the Mosqitos are below 4Wp and the Mosqitos have a rule allowing them to be taken with Som'er.

So any special rule from the first book has to be included in the second book to be valid still?

[Matamane]

For Money should be errata'd to bypass the restriction and cost

[gunpowder saint]

lol no way man, I've played several games with the Vik's and I ran 4 Desperate Mercs and turn three it's a blood bath!

Now picture 4 Desperate Mercs with the Drill Sergeant, they don't even need to be frantic to get the and with the drill sergeant firing range they attack 16 times at :+fate on Damage AND Attack

simple blood bath.

[Wodschow]

I just view the addition of the Mercenary characteristic as Wyrd's attempt to make it more clear that she can be hired out-of-faction like Leveticus and this confusion isn't intended. 'For Money' hasn't changed and works the same as before so we should be on the same page on this. Like C. Hoffman hiring Coppelius via Unexplained Connection or or Colette hiring Johan via Union Labor it's a special ability hire. You've successfully poked holes in all my other arguments so hopefully this one will hold.

If not then why not post in the Rules Forum "Can a non-Outcast faction with Victoria as a Master take any of the Freikorps Mercenaries as Mercenaries or does the Freikorps Mercenary ability prevent this?"

As far as I can tell you're using the same argument as I was to argue that she isn't hired as a Mercenary..

But I do myself question the validity of that assessment due to the redundancy of the addition of her Mercenary trait that would occur otherwise.

I actually thought this was in the Rules Section already (always just open things by New Posts =x)..

@Ciaran: That wasn't exactly what I meant (not in general anyway). It's just that given the entire section in Book1 which was relevant for the discussion has been revised without there being even a slight mention of the old forum ruling my guess is that unless it's featured in Zoraida or Jones' V2 rules it shouldn't be in effect anymore.

@gunpowder: Desperate Mercenaries aren't Guardsmen so are unaffected by the Drill Sergeants bubble anyway.

[gunpowder saint]

oh yeah... herp derp