Lilith list....

[M_Ruckuss]

So hows this been working for you McDoogle? Crushing pitiful humans and bathing in their blood yet? :vb_devil:

Am beginning to think that the BBS is going to be a mainstay for me

1) his poison ability and ability to start inflicting 3 wds (wds-love it!!!) on anything within 1" is awesome

2)Blood Sense is a great way to gain more blood counters easily.

3)Inject blood is awesome-YOU CAN HEAL NERVERBORN MODELS (IN A HIGH DF CREW!!!!!) oh, and 2/3/5 is awesome, and 6CA is better than average v defence

4)Q thid time- spill black blood works on models WITH blackblood, but it is not the black blood actually doing the damage, right?

Reason I ask is I was wondering if BBS can cast potent blood on himself/another model and increase the damage to 2wds per 2wds? Probably not but thought id ask...

5)Q again- can BBS heal himself with inject blood...???

All this and more for 6SS (think this and gunsmith are brilliant models not often given there due)

I actually think that the twins and BBS are a great investment for your 1st 20SS, with other weaker models to bulk up numbers. Again I miss my baby, but Nekima is very Pricey. Again though, she defiently has her place, but lilitu is a fantastic, versilite option (particularly casting lure again and again in combat...!!!)

In short, blunt club + blunt club (lilith and Nekima) is great (and Nekimas triggers can be a handful, as is her "everything always flays- thats why I really rate the idea of her, a BBS and as many tots as possible!)

A keep-healing-crew revolving around a regenerating lelu, a healing lilitu and a versalite BBS, and the ability to lose wounds (heal them back) and inflict wounds is just great!!!

I just miss my Nekima- I want to take her but my gaming style (subtle-ish brutallity) makes much more sense with more versatile models like twins and BBS.....

Its a fantastic dilemma as its keeping me hooked on this crew!!!

[Wodschow]

4)Q thid time- spill black blood works on models WITH blackblood, but it is not the black blood actually doing the damage, right?

Reason I ask is I was wondering if BBS can cast potent blood on himself/another model and increase the damage to 2wds per 2wds? Probably not but thought id ask...

Unfortunately it will not work as Black Blood isn't the same as Spill Black Blood, would be pretty crazy anyway.. So maybe it's in fact for the better.

5)Q again- can BBS heal himself with inject blood...??

A similar situation has just been answered in the Rules Section (Nicodem targetting himself with Decay). Ruling was that it wasn't allowed.

[M_Ruckuss]

Unfortunately it will not work as Black Blood isn't the same as Spill Black Blood, would be pretty crazy anyway.. So maybe it's in fact for the better.

A similar situation has just been answered in the Rules Section (Nicodem targetting himself with Decay). Ruling was that it wasn't allowed.

Many thanks wodshow, I thought as much but thought I would check...!

BBS still awesome to my mind tho!

[Wodschow]

Many thanks wodshow, I thought as much but thought I would check...!

BBS still awesome to my mind tho!

Oh yes, certainly.. I didn't intend to imply otherwise in any way

[M_Ruckuss]

Oh yes, certainly.. I didn't intend to imply otherwise in any way

Lol sorry, ive mis-posted my meaning- I was referring to earlier in that I think for SS cost its an awesome buy,and for 30ss games or less can potentially (with a lilitu) give you most of the options Nekima does, with more variety/options and subtly (although granted people are dead scared of Nekima and she makes tots wrong but hey, ive still got lilith and a cherub-delieverd lelu...)

I will still miss my Nekima tho

[M_Ruckuss]

BBS I think for SS cost its an awesome buy,and for 30ss games or less can potentially (with a lilitu) give you most of the options Nekima does, with more variety/options and subtly (although granted people are dead scared of Nekima and she makes tots wrong but hey, ive still got lilith and a cherub-delieverd lelu...)

(

Just played Orphelia (who has really dirty ability "flip an 8 and inflict 5 wounds"ability lol) and think that BBS is def worth the points, and Lelu and Lilitu are not far behind in terms of what they can do. Cherub- his range 10, dg 1 flip literally won me the game today. Only things going wrong are STILL NOT REMEMBERING BLACK BLOOD and am starting (Karn) to see what you mean about tots being fragile- they need to hide or grow asap- pere made short work of them!!!

Transposition can be summed up in one word though:

B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L!!!!

Next stop, rematch versus the ratman...

[Jonas Albrecht]

Ive been playing around with this set up for the past few weeks and it really borders on the adusive. By turn 2 as long as all goes well (only failed once in 9 games) you should of been able to grow your 3 Terror Tots in to 2 Matures and 1 Young and still have the rest of the list alive apart from the 2 Merc's by turn 2.

Warband =

Lilith +4

Cherub -2

BB Shaman -6

Nekima -13

3 x Terror Tots -9

2 x D Merc’s -4

Total 34. Leaving Lilith with 5 shards.

Turn 1

1) Activate Nekima.

a) Cast 0 Nephilim Heart for CA + Mask

Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood counter.

2) Activate Lilith

a) Kill a Merc Using 1st action

Shaman or Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

c) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal Nekima

d) Use 0 to use Brain Blood and get 1 Blood Counter.

e) Use Bloody Fate to draw a Card if you had 2 masks

f) Kill a Merc Using 2nd action

g) Shaman or Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

h) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal Nekima

i) Use Bloody Fate to draw a Card if you had 2 masks

j) Use last action as required.

3) Activate Cherub

a) Use 2 actions as required. Normally I use one action to make a forest to block LOS, slow models down or to just add bonus protection as I don't move on turn 1.

5) Activate BB Shaman

a) Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood Counter.

Using a Corpses Counter from a dead Merc cast 1 action Inject Blood on (self) Shaman and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from the two mask Trigger.

c) Using the last Corpses Counter from a dead Merc cast 1 action Inject Blood on (Self) Shaman and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from two mask Trigger.

Then grow and mature you 3 Terror Tots using the 7 blood counters. The fact you get 4 CB for growing and an extra mast from Nekima. Makes it pritty easy even with an adverage hand.

By turn 2 you should have 46 points of models on the board and Lilith with 5 shards to use. Yes you basically loose turn one but I havn't found that a problem at all so far. Try it out and let me know the results.

I need to show this to our local Lilith player. Its a pretty impressive set up, and incredible thematic.

Lilith hires some Desperate Mercenaries, who don't realize just what the job entails...

[oozeboss]

It's extremely clever, and very very pragmatic.

But "thematic"? Only in terms of the "Mother of Monsters" basically monstering a couple of lesser hirelings.

But would two desperate men take a position with a beast of Lilith's staure and reputation?

I very much doubt it.

Growing & maturing Tots is all part & parcel of the Joys of Nephilim, but I can't help thinking that there may be less cynical & more thematically appropriate ways of accomplishing it.

[Mach_5]

But would two desperate men take a position with a beast of Lilith's staure and reputation?

I very much doubt it.

Well, they are desperate. And not just "my kids can't eat so I'm gonna rob the local bakery for bread" desperate, they are "I'm gonna join up with any master who'll have me and sacrifice myself in an attempt to further his goals" desperate. I'm pretty sure they don't care if they sacrifice themselves for Lilith any more than they would for Lady Justice.

[Q'iq'el]

Is it wrong to say that even though I'm not desperate at all I'd immediately take Lilith's offer to fight and die at her side?

She represents everything that's good and holy in this world, she's like a angel-pâtissier of retribution raining the just deserts on the fat heads of all the guild lackeys! If not for her nobleness the humanity would have already driven all these poor slaves to their deaths, digging for the evil rocks that turn everyone into a monster of unspeakable evil.

All hail Lilith!

Did I make my point?

[M_Ruckuss]

It's extremely clever, and very very pragmatic.

But "thematic"? Only in terms of the "Mother of Monsters" basically monstering a couple of lesser hirelings.

But would two desperate men take a position with a beast of Lilith's staure and reputation?

I very much doubt it.

Growing & maturing Tots is all part & parcel of the Joys of Nephilim, but I can't help thinking that there may be less cynical & more thematically appropriate ways of accomplishing it.

Whilst reiterating that it is important for everyone to have their own gaming style, my personal preferred playing style is along the these lines. I agree oozeboss, I prefer to grow/mature/summon Lelu & liltu using counters gained from/using neverborn models, particularly as I envisage my lilith crew as a kind of neverborn freedom fighter/forest spirit crew (with the eniviatable neverborn twist it must be added). It is, however, a highly useable tactic, but one i would only use against an opponent being a muppet (and then onl once, as I probably wouldnt play hm again!)

However, if both opponents opt for "optimum" lists, it could make for an awesome game.

Up to individual players to choose is what i guess im saying!

[M_Ruckuss]

Is it wrong to say that even though I'm not desperate at all I'd immediately take Lilith's offer to fight and die at her side?

She represents everything that's good and holy in this world, she's like a angel-pâtissier of retribution raining the just deserts on the fat heads of all the guild lackeys! If not for her nobleness the humanity would have already driven all these poor slaves to their deaths, digging for the evil rocks that turn everyone into a monster of unspeakable evil.

All hail Lilith!

Did I make my point?

However, i also take this point of view (i couldnt refuse an offer from either of the 2 sisters.....)

[Jonas Albrecht]

It's extremely clever, and very very pragmatic.

But "thematic"? Only in terms of the "Mother of Monsters" basically monstering a couple of lesser hirelings.

But would two desperate men take a position with a beast of Lilith's staure and reputation?

I very much doubt it.

Growing & maturing Tots is all part & parcel of the Joys of Nephilim, but I can't help thinking that there may be less cynical & more thematically appropriate ways of accomplishing it.

I balk at the misuse of cynical here.

Also, I stand by my statement. Lilith hiring two desperate mercenaries for a job, and then killing them and feeding them to her young is very much in the themes of Malifaux's Neverborn.

[oozeboss]

I take your point, especially regarding the use of "cynical". Bit of a case of hyperbolic mouth (fingers?) in that instance, and there was never meant to be any imputation of dubious intent.

Please consider it withdrawn.

I am going through a bit of a 'purist' phase right now, and dropped the Doppleganger from my Dreamer crew (at least for now) because having a non-Nightmare just didn't sit well with me.

In a similar vein, I'd be looking at a purely Neph crew for my Lilith. For now.

It does go to show that there really is no perfect answer or theme, and different strokes really do work for different folks.

[Q'iq'el]

It does go to show that there really is no perfect answer or theme, and different strokes really do work for different folks.

Actually my crew is pretty canonical too, but the point at which you were, IMHO, mistaken is that canonical=themed.

It's perfectly OK to have a crew with Lilith leading a bunch of crazed cultists with brains melted from inhaling the Soulstone dust. She wouldn't think twice about sacrificing them and sucking their blood dry and a list like that could be both themed and quite in character. I bet should she meet such desperate men, she wouldn't think twice about using them to further her own goals.

"Desperate" in a mercenary may mean many things too.

[karn987]

I am going through a bit of a 'purist' phase right now, and dropped the Doppleganger from my Dreamer crew (at least for now) because having a non-Nightmare just didn't sit well with

I to am a bit of a purist when it comes to my crews, I tend to prefer the vanilla lists over those with some tweaks. But on the note of the Dreamer, I have not been able to convince myself of a good reason to take anything but Nightmares heh. So Im interested to why you take the Doppleganger with him? For fun and giggles is fine, but is there a tactical reason for it?

The theme of your crew can be whatever you wan't really, but there are always those model that make up the masters core models. Their Vanilla models if you will. For example, Leveticus's vanilla models are SPA, Desolation Engine, Ashes and Dust, Hollow Waif, and Alyce. But the theme of the crew you build from it can vary easily. So for Lilith, her vanilla models are Nephilim for certain. But she can do a wide variety of thematic lists that work just fine, like the Bloode Counter factory lists.

But I tend to agree with Mcdoogle on this, I would not use Blood Factory unless I was playing a real "muppet" of a player. It's a very mean list and it really breaks the point constraints of the game just like Res can. Though most Res models (most mind you, look'n at you Samurai Punk) are also on the low side of their SS cost power scale. Nephilim tend to push the boundaries of their SS cost, so you can see where it gets mean ;D.

You know another thing I think people forget is, in the book it mentions that the Neverborn can change the form they take. That the look of the human for Neverborn are just to spook and toy with us and that they could change forms. Maybe that's how Lilith does it? Just hides the fangs and dyes her hair, I'm sure she could find many desperate mercenaries like that ;D

Edited November 30, 2010 by karn987

[Jonas Albrecht]

I am going through a bit of a 'purist' phase right now, and dropped the Doppleganger from my Dreamer crew (at least for now) because having a non-Nightmare just didn't sit well with me.

I can relate to that. I've been playing an all Ortega list since day one.

[M_Ruckuss]

You know another thing I think people forget is, in the book it mentions that the Neverborn can change the form they take. That the look of the human for Neverborn are just to spook and toy with us and that they could change forms. Maybe that's how Lilith does it? Just hides the fangs and dyes her hair, I'm sure she could find many desperate mercenaries like that ;D

I really like this idea. You could also take this further and include a unique outcast minion and use it as a Nephilim (maybe even a dopple ganger?) impersonating them for the battle (i am thinking neverborn parodies of maybe Taelor, Misaki or Jonas with a twisted colour scheme). Just a thought.

Also love the cultist idea.

So you can gain what, 2BC of this model...? Ouch-if you take 2 you can make the 2nd a Nephilim for a turn and summon a Lelu or Lilitu on a 12 of anything..... thats really harsh (but amusing if playing a certain type of opponent!)

So 4ss gets you a second lelu ( allowing you to take either ANOTHER merc or a tot). It almost seems to make sense to never take a Lelu, take a desperate 2 Mercs and a Terror Tot instead (with a BBS and a lilitu) use the BBS and lilitus own twisted thoughts ability to keep her alive, wait for a 12 to pop into your hand (playing the odds but lilith allows you a bit more leeway and hey, you have an extra tot in your army. (Or you could just take a desperate merc ad convert a cherub or tot- your still saving stones and would have 2 Lelus)

I think i'll stick to the purist list-its more fun to play. I also prefer my McMourning crew now I cant just sit their and dig up counters with doggies-again more fun! Horses for courses and all that however!!

Quick Q regarding (0) actions:

A dopple ganger has 1 listed (0) action, which its rules say it can use twice. I wa under (the perhaps mistaken impression?) that you can only use a single listed (0) action, even if you have instinctual.

SO: Does this mean I can use the same (0) action with characters with instinctual, such as BBS or Nekima (Im thinking double blood in the air or double spill black blood or double blood magic) or do I have to use 2 different (0) actions

[karn987]

http://wyrd-games.net/Ezine/CommonTalents.pdf

(+1) Instinctual: This model may perform two different (0) Actions during its activation.

So nope, must be different. Doppelgangers Shapeless is special ;D

Shapeless lets you use another (0) action which can be the same action, where as Instinctual must be 2 different actions. These override the core rule of only 1 (0) action a turn.

[M_Ruckuss]

http://wyrd-games.net/Ezine/CommonTalents.pdf

So nope, must be different. Doppelgangers Shapeless is special ;D

Thanks,Thats what I thought, I just wanted to check (it makes sense anyway!

Quick point re Opheilia- have you played with her/against her? Her right between the eyes is potentially game winning- theres no resist and can be cast in combat on a 6, and by my maths, will do an average of 8 wounds, not even taking into account the +++ flip and cheating (which would, I think, take it all the way to 15 wounds, no resist)

It seems to me shes pretty much the linchpin of her crew, so fair enough if it is intended this way, (she may will be my next eventual crew anyway,her or Kaeris so have no probs with it at all, i think its awesome!!!!) I just wanted to check to see if this is def the way she is designed to play, as my opponent and I "theory-fauxed" just how awesome this could be.

Assuming this is so, I was just wondering if anyone has advice on how to counter it? I won the game i played against her anyway, but just wanted to ask if you had any advice about it (other than hit her hard before she hits you!)

McDoogle

[karn987]

Thanks,Thats what I thought, I just wanted to check (it makes sense anyway!

Quick point re Opheilia- have you played with her/against her? Her right between the eyes is potentially game winning- theres no resist and can be cast in combat on a 6, and by my maths, will do an average of 8 wounds, not even taking into account the +++ flip and cheating (which would, I think, take it all the way to 15 wounds, no resist)

It seems to me shes pretty much the linchpin of her crew, so fair enough if it is intended this way, (she may will be my next eventual crew anyway,her or Kaeris so have no probs with it at all, i think its awesome!!!!) I just wanted to check to see if this is def the way she is designed to play, as my opponent and I "theory-fauxed" just how awesome this could be.

Assuming this is so, I was just wondering if anyone has advice on how to counter it? I won the game i played against her anyway, but just wanted to ask if you had any advice about it (other than hit her hard before she hits you!)

McDoogle

If I recall correctly, this has popped up before and it has a misprint in the book. It is supposed to be resist Df and her card has the correction on it.

[Wodschow]

Quick point re Opheilia- have you played with her/against her? Her right between the eyes is potentially game winning- theres no resist and can be cast in combat on a 6, and by my maths, will do an average of 8 wounds, not even taking into account the +++ flip and cheating (which would, I think, take it all the way to 15 wounds, no resist)

Okay there's alot of stuff wrong here..

It's a spell, you need a 8 to cast it, you cannot use her Cb trigger to double the damage, and as karn said there's a typo in the book, it is resistable with defence.

I also find the wound average a rather strange measure as it really doesn't matter what the average is anyway (especially when there's a large spread between the levels).. Also there's not as many weak, moderate and severe damage cards, so it's not simply adding them and dividing by three.

Sorry.

[M_Ruckuss]

If I recall correctly, this has popped up before and it has a misprint in the book. It is supposed to be resist Df and her card has the correction on it.

I did wonder! My opponent was proxing them to try them out, so we would have found out eventually ( I want a crew just to paint as I really like the models) Makes more sense as it will (typically) be better against larger monsters with a low df- I was looking at more normally-achilles-like Lilith and starting to sweat a bit!

[M_Ruckuss]

Okay there's alot of stuff wrong here..

It's a spell, you need a 8 to cast it, you cannot use her Cb trigger to double the damage, and as karn said there's a typo in the book, it is resistable with defence.

I also find the wound average a rather strange measure as it really doesn't matter what the average is anyway (especially when there's a large spread between the levels).. Also there's not as many weak, moderate and severe damage cards, so it's not simply adding them and dividing by three.

Sorry.

There probably is, but

Fair enough, my Maths isnt great, i'll freely admit that!

So yeah, 8 to cast (I may have looked at the range by mistake-muppet!)

I didnt mention the double damage bit, I was only referring to being able to get it off 3 times, with a POTENTIAL of 15 wounds, more likely around 8.

My average probably isnt mathematically correct, i was just assuming that across the attempts to get it off you would get one of each damage arc, and that between a +++ flip and the ability to cheat you can usually inflict a fair number of wounds (with a RELATIVELY high chance of a 10), and can do this in combat.

All of my commentary was not based on any calculations, other than potential, and was only to illustrate my opinion: with the apparent (as in I dont own the card) inability to resist it was a pretty meaty attack with the potentiall to knock out my lilith with a decent hand. Granted there is ALWAYS the potential for this (i have yet to hear of a game where 4 13's and a red joker are flipped in attacks one after the other while the defender gets straight 1's, but I guess its possible!lol) but it was more the lack of a resist i was querying.

So thanks for pointing out my (seemingly everpresent!) mathematical mistakes Wodschow! Nice to clear up as yeah, the extra 2 cast def makes a big difference (for e.g. if he has to cheat to get it off, its less cards he has left that turn)

edit:In summary, the potential optimum damage of this spell with no resist is quite high. Would have perhaps made quite a cool (0) action, lose 1/2 wounds, take one shot damage 1/2/5 with +++ to wound

Edited November 30, 2010 by McDoogle

[Wodschow]

Huh...?

You sound rather sarcastic.. I didn't really mean to offend you.. :/

It wasn't obvious to me that your average was for multiple attacks or how you calculated it at all, thus I made unreasonable assumptions to make things fit in my own head. I apologize for that. I suppose the average makes a little more sense when considering it as multiple attacks in a turn aswell, still not very fond of it though.