Wierd Rules From Wyrd Miniatures

[bigstupidfighter]

So as I look through the malifaux system and absorb its various quirks, some of the less explainable ones really start to nag at the corners of my mind, and I've decided it's best to just let them out before my head explodes from the confusion. I have two new ones today-

First, 3+" of Obscuring terraian blocks LoS. However, multiple pieces of obscuring terrain one behind other don't stack for this. So a model can't shoot throug 3" of woods, but 2" of woods, 2" of Steamborg Executioner's Steam, and then another 2" is possible to draw LoS through- WTF? I don't see this coming up very often, but then that just adds another level of 'why?' to this. Don't see any real-world or metagame explanation for terrain working this way.

Second, hiring models from out of your Faction costs +1SS. This one at least makes some sense, as it could be harder to track down/barter with a model you don't have any real connections with... but wait, that was what the extra cost on Mercenaries from Book 1 was for. This new way doesn't make as much sense, and makes the ability of some masters to hire out of faction (Zoraida and Marcus come to mind) go from cool and useful to very situational. I was liking the idea of running gremlins with Zoraida before I saw this.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game. Just wondering if anyone else sees the same sort of things or if I'm just crazy. Also, i'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind some of these rules if any playtesters know the intent.

[RisingPhoenix]

1) Irritation. 3" is a simple standard. Trying to do math on what everything adds up to is annoying, in the very few instances it matters (seriously, most guns have 8-10" range). Speed can trump strict common sense on occasion.

2) Models are developing more special rules. Mercenaries are cropping up in weird locations. Guild has one, I think. Others too. Meanwhile, other models are developing more rules that let them poach from other army lists. Consistent standards save you time in printing "at +1 cost" everywhere.

Edited September 11, 2010 by RisingPhoenix

[gunpowder saint]

good news on the second rule in question

"at no additional cost" overrides all other rules

it's in both Zorida's and Marcus' rules. but the thing is, people like C. Hoffman, say they can just hire them, meaning they'll still have to pay the +1SS

but the gremlins have a special rule against that Zorida and the gremlin thing, i'm not sure though.

[bigstupidfighter]

Alright, I can see where you're coming from on the terrain- it is one of those things that won't come up very often. I don't think the new way of hiring out of faction is any lesscomplicated however, since there are many things that ignore it. Marcus being one of them, as I had forgotten.

So that leaves me with looking at it as a stealth cuddle for Z. It has been a long strange road with her; Obey gets cuddled, then ruled so the Cuddling doesn't seem so bad, Bewitch gets cuddled, then Conduit is spiced up and Summon Voodoo Doll suddenly becomes more than just a way to get her totem.

Interesting points guys, getting a fresh perspective on these things helps me sleep at night, on account of my brain hurting less.

[Wodschow]

First, 3+" of Obscuring terraian blocks LoS. However, multiple pieces of obscuring terrain one behind other don't stack for this. So a model can't shoot throug 3" of woods, but 2" of woods, 2" of Steamborg Executioner's Steam, and then another 2" is possible to draw LoS through- WTF? I don't see this coming up very often, but then that just adds another level of 'why?' to this. Don't see any real-world or metagame explanation for terrain working this way.

It's quite hard to make a LoS/Terrain system that works intuitively for all types of terrain. At least it is if you want to boil it down to something that doesn't require a book on its own..

Second, hiring models from out of your Faction costs +1SS. This one at least makes some sense, as it could be harder to track down/barter with a model you don't have any real connections with... but wait, that was what the extra cost on Mercenaries from Book 1 was for. This new way doesn't make as much sense, and makes the ability of some masters to hire out of faction (Zoraida and Marcus come to mind) go from cool and useful to very situational. I was liking the idea of running gremlins with Zoraida before I saw this.

This is directly incorrect, minions outside faction have always been +1 SS, even in Book1. I don't know why you thought it was Mercenaries only at some point.

Mercenaries just happen to be the most common models to be hired out of faction.

Also.. Marcus' rules allow him to hire at 'no additional cost' which means he doesn't have to pay the +1 SS.

Edit:

@gunpowder_saint: Zoraida does -not- have the 'no additional cost' wording, so -will- have to pay +1 SS.

Also.. I think Hoffman the extra price for Hoffman to hire Arcanist constructs is only fair as he really adds new synergy levels to them.

@bigstupidfighter: I don't consider the change from (0) to (1) on Bewitch a cuddle. It's a good thing really.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Wodschow

[nilus]

Hiring out of faction always cost +1 Soul stone. Even in book 1. Unless the ability to hire outside of faction said otherwise(Like Marcus or Nicodem).

As far as the 3" terrain rule. Its simple rules balance and playability. If you had to keep track and measure all the obscuring terrain between you and your enemy it would make the game overly complicated.

[poulpox]

And if I may add, the Wicked dolls have now added more usage variety for Zoraida, who can now summon them if there's no Obey to cast. This summon is top notch, I love my Hag!

[bigstupidfighter]

Huh you're right, out of faction hiring rule has existed since book 1. For some reason this makes me not hate it. Well, maybe just a little. I still have to disagree with the terrain not stacking making the game 'simpler.' You have to check range, LoS, and the depth of the obscuring terrain to check if it blocks anyway.

@ Wodschow- I'm interested to hear why you like Bewitch being a (1) action. To me, Z should pretty much be casting Obey and Create Voodoo Doll every round with the advent of the Wicked Dolls, leaving no room for another action exept (0). If you have a way to give her Fast its probably a good thing, but aside from that I don't like it. I do think Zoraida is stronger now than she was in the beginning anyway though, since Conduit and Create Voodoo Doll are soooo much more powerful now.

So, anyone else have any wierd rules? I'm sure there are more out there.

Uexplained Smiley of the Day: :dancing2:

[Berman]

Well also of note if your completly behind that forest of 2" and not in it... their is no LOS.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15057

[Wodschow]

Concerning Bewitch:

You are limited to -one- (0) action per turn with Zoraida, she have two very good ones already.

If you really need to Bewitch something you can cast it again should you fail the first time since it's now a (1) action.

It can now be cast through Magical Extension.

I can see your point of view though: if you indeed intend to make a doll and Obey -every- turn, then you won't ever get to cast it this way.

While I've never played her I don't like the idea of such a static Zoraida though and I certainly do not think as highly of the Dolls as you do. I mean, they're -okay- if you have a bunch of them, but only against crews with no blasts/pulses. They're another tool to her toolbox - that is all I see them as - not as a 'must summon each turn'-über-good minion of doom.

Also.. I think that Obeying a Mature Nephilim in your own crew is often more effective than Obeying an enemy. You don't want to Conduit your own models so if you just stay back the whole time you won't get to do this kind of support to your crew.

[bigstupidfighter]

You have a point about the (0) actions, though I'm not a huge fan of Crystal Ball I respect that it is powerful and I probably should be giving it more credit than I do. As for obeying a Mature- yeah this is usually the way to go, I don't see the need to hide Z as much as others I think so its not a problem for me. My reasoning for this is that 1) she is very good at getting out of melee, 2) she is tough since she has little need of SS for anything else other than defense and now 3) she has Wicked Dolls to protect her.

I really have to disagree about the Wicked Dolls, a 3ss model that requires no casting flip and the sacrifice of no counters seems incredible to me. I haven't really tried it out yet as the 1 game I've played with Z since i saw them was a victory for her on turn 3 with only 1 wicked doll in play. They seem like lovely meat shields good for padding your numbers for objectives and making your opponent think twice about getting in their charge range. As for blasts, they have high Df and Z can use soulstones... no easy blast target there.

[Killionaire]

Well also of note if your completly behind that forest of 2" and not in it... their is no LOS.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15057

For people who have a point of reference, it's Warmachine LOS rules as far as forests go.

If there's a giant blob forest that someone is standing within, you can see them if they're within 3 inches of the edge.

If it's a tiny strip forest, and the enemy is behind it, completely out of it, you cannot see them period.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

LOS rules don't always make sense in terms ofreal life examples, but it would be nearly impossible to create those kind of rules that make sense in game terms.

Fast and easy rules are more fun to play than tediously complicated rules. I still can't get over how easy it was for me to transition to this game from my last.