How to Mature a Terror Tot in 3 easy steps!

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Reading this thread makes me happy to be a Neverborn master (predominantly) and I cant wait for the new sculpts.

[Whatsicle]

I tried this out the other night and I have to say it was amazing. Lilith did blood from stone (2SS for a blood counter to grow a tot to a young is still cheaper than buying the young!), Nekima hurt herself for a SS and killed two desperate mercenaries (Which, of course, healed her ). First turn being able to change four terror tots into two mature and two young... even accounting for the sacrificial lamb-mercenaries, you've still doubled the value of your nephilim (SS cost wise, anyway).

There's very little someone can do in a 30SS game against two mature nephilim -and- Nekima -and- Lilith all jumping out from behind cover and chomping on someone's face in the same turn!

tl/dr: I very enthusiastically agree that the above 'growing tactic' is awesome and effective.

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@Sliver Chocobo - I don't have my Rising Power with me, but how do you get three desperate mercenaries into your list? I know they're 'Comes Cheap' and Rare 4, but I didn't think they had something that let you ignore the '2 mercenaries' rule.

Is it a part of 'Comes Cheap' I completely glossed over?

Edited September 23, 2010 by Whatsicle

[Q'iq'el]

The real question is, how good is that option? Let's see for 30SS game:

Lilith for Master

Nekima - 13

Desperate Mercenary x2 - 4

Terror Tot x4 - 12

29 SS total. Pool = 5SS

In your initial transformation you've spent 2 SS, made up to 7 Blood Counters - 1 from Blood from Stone, 1 from Blood Offering, up to 2 using Drain Blood on the DMs and 2 from Blood Sense.

I'm not sure how you healed Nekima - I see no such ability on her (Lelitu has such ability). Nekima will need 4 turns to regenerate these 4 wounds. (unless I miss something).

In that first turn Nekima must use one of its (0) actions on Blood Offering and the other on Nephilim Heart. Also she cannot be the model killing the Mercenaries, because she doesn't have Drain Blood. Lilith can kill one.

Because you need only 6 Blood Counters though, we can simply kill the second DM with Nekima or Lilith (will produce only 1 BC not 2, but it's ok).

Let's assume all the Cards are right and with Nekima's support 4 Tots easily grow into 2 Youngs and 2 Matures.

You end up with crew that has at the beginning of the 2nd Turn:

1. Nekima with 9 Wd left.

2. Pool = 3SS

3. 45 SS worth of models.

A traditional Lilith crew for the same 30SS battle would be:

1. 1 Mature Nephilim

2. 2 Young Nephilim

3. 2 Terror Tot

Pool = 6SS

That team would have hard time Growing Tots early, but it could reasonably easily get one Young into Mature by turn 2 and increase its size to 32 SS, possibly with no need for spending SS. If it took 1 DM instead of 1 Terror Tot, it could kill that DM, Mature one of the Youngs and still have 5SS left in the pool.

It does seem inferior at first, doesn't it?

But here's the deal:

Team 1 has spent their *entire* first turn bunched around Nekima. Even if there was enough terrain to hide them all from shooting, the opponent had an entire turn to move in good positions. The total cost of this mass growing operation is 3x (0) actions and around 10 AP. Even if some of the models may have AP left for Walk actions, only Young Nephilim can move away safely - Matures will be spent and Nekima and Lilith must make sure they stay in range to provide Blood Counters and their Auras to the Growing Tots and Maturing Youngs.

So the total cost of the entire operation is not 2SS. It's 2SS + 3 (0)s + entire turn (around 10 AP spent, 2 AP free for walk, 2 AP probably wasted).

If you add some sort of turn 1 massive blast trick, that can target this group, you are in for some serious additional damage which will bring your crew below 45SS in turn 2. In fact, if it's the Nekima who dies to that initial attack, you may end up with 3 Terror Tots, 1 Young and 20SS worth of crew in turn 2.

Think what Bête Noire could do to the crew 1, popping out of one of DM's? She could kill 3 Tots (she'd gain fast from the first kill) or she could paralyze Nekima and/or Lilith, setting you one turn back. And you won't get Blood Counters out of Bête Noire.

At the same time the second ("classic") crew is completely safe, steady and moving fast towards the opponent. They might have even scored some kills already by the time the 1st crew barely starts the game.

I admit I don't like the fact that unless opponent has some of the nasty new tricks, you can't really counter the former crew's growing by 15SS, but on the other hand you're left with just 3SS (very small pool for Lilith) and you lose a whole turn. Even if Lilith crew is generally fast, 5 turns may simply not be enough to complete some Strategies and Schemes... especially when the opponent is 1 turn ahead.

I think the 2nd ("classic") crew would have a very hard time beating the 1st and I don't like it very much (considering the Books are supposed to be balanced). But that's because the "classic" crew has no tools whatsoever to stop the turn 1 growing operation of the Nekima crew and after that it has to deal with a Nephilim crew + Nekima who's real monster.

On the other hand a "semi-classic" crew consisting of Lilith, Nekima, 2 Young Nephilim and 1 Terror Tot would still have 6SS pool, would kill something in turn 2 and probably get at least 1 Mature and Grow the Tot by the beginning of turn 3. Still half of the 15SS gain of the 1st crew, but seeing how the APs were dedicated towards claiming objectives and killing opponents, rather than growing the crew, I think the "semi-classic" team would have a very serious chance of beating the "growing" team.

To sum up - I think that a semi-classic approach with Nekima and aggressive tactics is actually the best choice. Growing 4 Tots is a massive operation which costs a turn and leaves crew vulnerable - a gamble that may lose the game if it goes wrong. A balanced approach that uses Nekima's abilities to grow and mature as the crew goes is in my mind more reliable and more effective.

The only problem I see is the "classic" team. Somehow I feel a team build entirely from Book 1 options should still stand a chance, but to go without Nekima against Nekima seems really problematic. Does it mean Nekima is OP?

Edited September 23, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Whatsicle]

When a desperate mercenary dies, it grants a healing flip. Two DM, two healing flips! Reasonable chance that the 4 wounds Nekima takes for stabbing herself in the liver or gall bladder are recovered, or that she'll recover when she activates at the start of turn two.

Good catch on Nekima not having drain blood. I don't know how I missed that, but... Well played. I guess that just means you have one of your young nephilim do the killing instead. ..Or have Lilith kill both, since you can 'Blood from Stone' as many times as you want for that same AP, provided you do it all at once.

You're absolutely right - you're not doing much this first turn. In higher point games you can move a bit more, what with earthquake potentially cast four times, but at 30SS... They get a pretty much free first turn to move. I personally don't see this as too much of a disadvantage, as with the ranges involved in turn one it's pretty rare to be seriously hurt. ...Obviously if you know you're going against a Papa Obey list you deploy a bit differently and it slows you down some, but..

Understanding that local metagames are probably a bit different, I rarely see a game go to all six + turns, usually decided by turn 4 - therefore skipping one of my turns is, against most crews, a moot point.

Furthermore!

Yes, your entire crew is bunched up. Why all know why that's a bad idea, I won't say it isn't, but.. skipping that!

What's so bad about not moving? If they have the range to shoot you safe in your deployment zone first turn, what's to stop them from moving towards your movement and then shooting them? ..also turn one.

Sure they could obey Nino and Hans and a Trapper into position and take pot shots, but they could have done that anyway.

At the same time, going back to bunched up:

What crews can do massive amounts of blast damage turn one?

...and armed with that knowledge, don't do this against them.

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To backtrack a bit, let me argue against myself for a bit and see if I can't trick/con/wile some of you naysayers into helping my point out!

The biggest disadvantage I see is leaving Lilith with one SS. Again, local metagame may dictate this, but the play style here means if you master isn't walking around with five or so stones on them, they're dead meat. This relegates Lilith to a primarily support role, and darting in through transposition or charges to kill a lone model and GTFO.

Furthermore, spending nearly half your SS (13 for Nekima in the assumed 30SS Scrap) on a single model is pretty insane - Nekima can die too, sometimes surprisingly easily (*^@*&@* Self destructing spiders and/or Pull-my-finger-ing mosquitos!) and when that happens, that's a huge blow to your army. It's the same reason my Viktoria army doesn't take Killjoy under a 45 point brawl.. he's too much of a point investment for a potentially disastrous blow, when the same SS could be spent on a mature and a tot, or two young, or or or... (For Lilith, not for Viktoria! Though the image of a Mature Neph carrying Vik into combat is rather appealing)

Edited September 23, 2010 by Whatsicle
Added stuffs

[bigstupidfighter]

The lost time is the downside to this list for sure, it's what I was trying to avoid with the Blood Shaman, although recently I've discovered it isn't working quite as well as I thought it would. He still lets the team catapult itself up 8" on the 2nd turn, which combined with the already fast Nephilim crew should get you where you need to be most of the time.

As for the "growing" crew getting creamed on turn 1, this has been discussed before but my opinion is still that it shouldn't be a problem. I've only tried this growing tactic out once, but the time that I did was against Perdita and her Papa Bomb, supposedly a "problem crew" that could do serious damage on turn 1, and I smoked it.

This new list is definitely a viable alternative to the one I originally posted, especailly now that the BBS's usefulness in the crew has been reduced. I'd still consider keeping the Shaman in for the added speed.

So at 30ss, Whatsicle can field by the start of turn 2, with few or no wounds on your models:

2 Mature

2 Young

1 Nekima

This is definitely the most damage output available of any idea so far, though it is admittedly even more AP intensive, and requires Lillith to use Blood from Stone.

I think the sheer killing power of the "growing" team will outweigh the ability to be further up the field on turn 1 in most games, but you have to consider that Whatsicles team is spending much more on growing up his army than I was, so it's debateable which one of us has a truly more "efficient" list. I wrote my original one up the way I did specifically excluding Lillith as part of the strategy to make it Master-neutral.

On an unrelated, it deserves mentioning that just growing a bunch of Young Nephilim is much less blood-counter intensive than growing Mature, and Nekima can help then to trigger Flay bringing their damage potentail way up. They're still more fragile but it's a legitimate option. I'm thinking of editing in an alternate version of the trick for this into the first post. I think the 30ss list would look simething like:

Nekima 13ss

4x tots 12ss

2x Desperate Merc. 4ss

Nekima does her buffs and sits tight, yes you have to waste her turn on this unfortuneately. Tot A kills a Merc, Grows and has to sit put as well. Tot B Grows, kills second Merc with Melee Expert, and moves up. Other tots Grow, move up. Lillith and Zoraida are both capable of mjoving your units from this point. I think this is a good hybrid for when the full-on "Growing" list is too slow, but the "traditional" list doesn't pack enough punch.

/rant. Summary: Young Nephilim are the word of the day!

Edited September 23, 2010 by bigstupidfighter

[Whatsicle]

On an unrelated, it deserves mentioning that just growing a bunch of Young Nephilim is much less blood-counter intensive than growing Mature

Absolutely. If I could highlight that and make it bold, I would. Oh wait.

On an unrelated, it deserves mentioning that just growing a bunch of Young Nephilim is much less blood-counter intensive than growing Mature

It's true with SS too! If you budget it in, it's actually cheaper to have Lilith Blood From Stone a terror tot than it is to buy a young neph, cheaper still to use a desperate mercenary.. (My proxies of which, by the way, are the chained GW Dark Eldar Slaves. They seemed to me to be suitable sacrifices!) Unless you want Nekima abusing sprint, I see absolutely no reason why your terror tots shouldn't all hit puberty within the first two turns.

Something to keep in mind on my list - yes, you can spend the entire first growing, which I find both hilarious and fun, or you can spread it out over two, three turns depending on what's tactically prudent. When it works, hop over and steal one of Nekima or Lilith's SSs(sss) and grow/mature.

..I don't see what's so bad about not moving the first turn though. The game is at least six turns. You skip one. Say.. two turns to get bogged down in combat (which with either flay on a young or a mature shouldn't happen often!), you're still left with three turns to move, total, during which your slowest unit, the young Nephilim, can cover 30" flying. Add in your 6-8" deployment zone and you can be anywhere on the board when you need to be. Heck, even repositioning come turn five-six still gives you at least 20" of movement which, if you were even remotely close to the board edge, puts you anywhere.

In summation (damn you energy drinks and your provocation to ramble!): One turn, maybe not the first, spent growing. One turn to move to the center of the board (ish), three! turns spent fighting, and you still have a turn or two left to get where you need to be if something somehow stood toe to toe with two matures and Nekima for three solid turns.

[Q'iq'el]

How bad losing entire turn 1 is depends chiefly on the Strategy and the opponent. And on the amount of terrain on the table.

If you face a fast crew and you give it entire first turn, they can easily complete some Strategies by the end of turn 3 (and you likely won't reach all of them with only 2 turns of movement) and then play avoidance with the rest.

Other factor is that Nephilim are generally very fragile. In fact, the bigger they are, the easier it is to kill them. If your opponent has entire turn to get exactly into the position, then the fact you just took 4 Young Nephilim or 2 Young and 2 Mature isn't going to hinder him much - he'll kill them 1 by 1 and you just gave him 1 more turn of shooting by not moving in turn 1 (because when you didn't move he took positions and in turn 2 he can spend all AP on shooting, while you are only beginning to move).

The semi-classic list I proposed, which actually pays for the Young Nephilim it starts with, would be free of that drawback - it could put the pressure on the opponent turn 1 and still grow its Tot and Young Nephilim in following turns.

To sum up not moving in turn one actually magnifies the weaknesses of Nephilim. It may seem you are getting stronger models, but you are getting models that are easier to deal with. They do better in melee but do worse at range and you end up being as far as you possibly can, because you hadn't moved in the turn 1.

I've always advocated maturing Young Nephilim only after they reach the combat as that actually protects your precious Matures from shooting and magic without wasting time on Defensive Stance which is very cumbersome to use (must be first AP used in activation, slows the model down etc.). If you have proper amount of terrain, it's always better to rush Tots and Young Nephilim forward, than to use Matures who can't hide most of the time anyway (ht3 and 50mm base).

I don't think it fundamentally changes for Nekima list. She may have very hard time hiding herself, but with the rest of the crew putting pressure on the opponent, she may get to sneak into combat anyway. Without that pressure (i.e. all the other models are just as far as Nekima), she's just the first target to deal with.

[Whatsicle]

Those are very good points. Terror tots are the most survivable and the fastest, but the weakest... and now that you bring it to the forefront, I remember exactly how easily Mature Nephilim can be shot down, where a terror tot or young would be dodging out of the way. (Except not, oddly enough, by the Gunsmith. Sucka!)

I didn't even think about fast crews who grab, say, treasure and then run away.. I believe my list has an answer to the that, though the growing strategy does not - My list starts you off with four terror tots. Nekima can grant s to their casting ability, and therefore, their spring. With a mask or two in your hand, suddenly you have multiple terror tots sprinting up to 30".. easily enough to be a speed bump, or more conservatively, to grab a centrally placed objective and be prepared to move with it next turn.

I still don't agree with paying for young nephilim out of the gate.. it just doesn't seem worth the extra 1-2 SS for that 1AP, especially if you're doing it many, many times. It adds up quick! (Keep in mind if the end goal is young Nephilim, you can sprint up to 10" ahead of Nekima and then grow).

I will, however, now agree that spending your first turn not moving may not always be the best option. But, since you pick your list after you determine your strategy, I don't see it coming up too often.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I tried this out the other night and I have to say it was amazing. Lilith did blood from stone (2SS for a blood counter to grow a tot to a young is still cheaper than buying the young!), Nekima hurt herself for a SS and killed two desperate mercenaries (Which, of course, healed her ). First turn being able to change four terror tots into two mature and two young... even accounting for the sacrificial lamb-mercenaries, you've still doubled the value of your nephilim (SS cost wise, anyway).

There's very little someone can do in a 30SS game against two mature nephilim -and- Nekima -and- Lilith all jumping out from behind cover and chomping on someone's face in the same turn!

tl/dr: I very enthusiastically agree that the above 'growing tactic' is awesome and effective.

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@Sliver Chocobo - I don't have my Rising Power with me, but how do you get three desperate mercenaries into your list? I know they're 'Comes Cheap' and Rare 4, but I didn't think they had something that let you ignore the '2 mercenaries' rule.

Is it a part of 'Comes Cheap' I completely glossed over?

no my falt forgot about the only mercenaries rule, sorry

[vineuk]

Hi all.Right I'm quite new to this game but no matter how I try and work it out I can NOT get the blood counters required to mature 2 terror tots into Mature Nephilims and 2 terror tots in to Young Nephilims as people have stated on this thread.

The list I'm using is

Lilith

Cherub 2

4 x Terror Tots 12

Neldma 13

2 x Desperate Merc 4

31 points leaving Lilith 8 Soulstones.

I get 3 Blood counters from liliths Blood from stone leaving her 2

I get 1 from Neldma for using Blood Offering

2 from killing the Mercs

Total 6

It takes 1 blood counter to make a Tot into a Young and 2 to make it into a Mature. Thats the who 6 Blood counts I have to make 2 Mature. Where do I get the other 2 to make 2 Youngs from ????

I must be missing something because no matter how I try this it ends up with the same result. Sorry if I sound thick or I'm missing something so simple. But this is now annoyign me lol.....

[vineuk]

It's ok I worked it out I wasnt taking into account Nekima ability Blood Sence. New it something so simple I could't see it.