Best way to shut down flight or float?

[kbdrand]

So, I find that some crews like Lilith or Kirai have some pretty good mobility with flight and float, but I can't think of any good counters to those abilities. Are there any crews in the game that can block or deny flight or float to help corral those abilities?

[Wodschow]

Well.. I suppose Zoraida can Hex them..

Also.. while you'll obviously play on the tables you have available, I noticed that there's about as many 'indoor locations' listed as there's outdoors in Book2's encounter section.

If you play in those places Flight and Float gets shut down pretty efficiently I guess.

[tenabrae]

I don't think you really need to... in Malifaux these abilities are just ways to avoid terrain (like arachnid or scout)... any ability that affects movement will stop them (menace or snare for example) and without other abilities, they won't get you a free pass out of combat.

[kbdrand]

Well, I've been playing against Lilith quite a bit recently and one of the Lilith builds I play against is 2 Mature Nephilim. The problem is that those two Nephilim can basically bypass my models and go straight for my master. Which means I have to group up to surround my master (in the case of weak melee masters like Ramos or Nicodem). And if my strategy is something like Reconnoiter, then that basically means I won't be able to complete my strategy.

Indoor locations from book 2 are good, but I can't guarantee we would be playing in an indoor location.

[Berman]

Flight and Float STILL take into account the melee rang of models they go by. They don't get a free pass when flying to avoid getting hit with a disengaging strike. They can go around but if they go over your models your models get to try and hit them to stop them.

[kbdrand]

Do you have something to reference that? We had this question come up in a game and I could not find a specific reference that said you got disengaging strikes on flying or floating models. The point was brought up that since flying and floating models can flying over pretty much any height object, that they could fly outside of the melee range of the models below them.

[Borthcollective]

Flight and Float STILL take into account the melee rang of models they go by. They don't get a free pass when flying to avoid getting hit with a disengaging strike. They can go around but if they go over your models your models get to try and hit them to stop them.

Can you cite a source on this? I'm not finding it anywhere. I don't see it in the main rulebook, errata or additional errata. The phrase "without any penalty", would say this is not correct.

[Q'iq'el]

Hmm... it's one thing to leave melee or move by on the ground. Only pushes and switches are exempt from disengaging strikes then.

IMHO flying models are not affected by disengagement strikes when they fly over someone. They still get stricken if they try leave melee via flight, though. I think wording of Fly rule on page 72 makes it clear.

Floating I'm not so sure. Are floating models hovering over ground or do they float at the last attitude they were at? Can they spend their walking distance on raising up, actually (1" per ht1)? I've never played one, but if they indeed float at defined altitude, then you can easily check if they enter melee range or not. A ht2 model with 1" melee range can reach up to ht3. A Mature nephilim would reach up to HT5, right?

[Wodschow]

Three dimensions is always messy.. Do you use cylinders or pseudo-spheres then?

I don't think you need to spend inches on moving vertically with models with Flight and Float..

Could floating models then just claim to end their move in mid-air, making it impossible to reach them? Too troublesome.. They move along the ground and can move through (over) terrain and models as they please.

Also.. I too think that flying and floating models trigger disengaging strikes as normal.. I'm fairly certain that the 'without penalty' phrase refers only to the penalty to movement from severe terrain and the normal inability to move through other models bases.

[Q'iq'el]

Does flying or floating model always enter melee range when he flies over other models then? Are there other abilities it affects, besides disengaging strike?

[Hatchethead]

It would make thematic and logical sense that a flying model is exempt from disengaging strikes while passing overhead, a floating model is not. Seems a floating model merely hovers (maybe a few feet) off the ground, allowing it to ignore terrain, otherwise forcing it to deal with nearby enemies wanting to take a swipe. Of course, flight and float would be a non-issue when attempting to leave melee range from ground level, which would trigger a disengage strike as per normal.

I would think flying models would be exempt from any effect or trigger that require it to be within melee range or a specific radius, at least while passing overhead and not assumed to have landed (between activations, for instance).

There's no source to cite, it just seems right. In the absence of an official ruling, I tend to err on the side of logic (with my fellow players agreement, of course).

[kbdrand]

Yeah, not be subject to disengaging strikes makes logical sense, but what about from a balance standpoint? We actually may need a rules marshal in here.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Just a heads up on the indoor scenarios, it only affects a models ability to fly over "walls" only. All other advantages related to flying or floating still apply.

The disengagement question I have no answer to. Where is the Teddy Bear at?

[Hatchethead]

Yeah, not be subject to disengaging strikes makes logical sense, but what about from a balance standpoint? We actually may need a rules marshal in here.

Indeed-ily dood-ily. Pood-ily.

[tenabrae]

I would agree once again the rules don't say you're immune to disengaging strikes, so you aren't. I would also argue you'd still take damage from hazardous terrain (though how you manage to fall down a mineshaft while flying I don't know... probably giant wyrms)

[Wyrrn]

Flying models are not a new concept in wargaming. Sure, it provides significant mobility, but there are always tactics to counter mobility.

[Q'iq'el]

I would agree once again the rules don't say you're immune to disengaging strikes, so you aren't. I would also argue you'd still take damage from hazardous terrain (though how you manage to fall down a mineshaft while flying I don't know... probably giant wyrms)

Nah, that's over-stretching the RAW. Damage from hazardous terrain is part of the terrain related rules - a penalty characteristic for that terrain type. We are told in the Float/Flight rules you can move over such terrain with no penalty.

[Wodschow]

Page 85:

"Flying or Floating models ignore hazards unless players agree otherwise before the game begins."

We housed it that flying models are affected if they land in it however..

[Justin]

So, I find that some crews like Lilith or Kirai have some pretty good mobility with flight and float, but I can't think of any good counters to those abilities. Are there any crews in the game that can block or deny flight or float to help corral those abilities?

Obey them to pick up the treasure counter.

[Q'iq'el]

Obey them to pick up the treasure counter.

That doesn't really prevent them from flying, does it? They'll auto-drop the counter as soon as they elect to fly, won't they?

[Justin]

That doesn't really prevent them from flying' date=' does it? They'll auto-drop the counter as soon as they elect to fly, won't they?[/quote']

It's a treasure counter!

Treasure!

They won't want to drop it!

[Q'iq'el]

It's a treasure counter!

Treasure!

They won't want to drop it!

One man's treasure is another man's potato masher...

[kbdrand]

Flying models are not a new concept in wargaming. Sure, it provides significant mobility, but there are always tactics to counter mobility.

So, in Malifaux specifically would you like to give some examples? That is what the thread was originally about. Asking for advice on shutting down/countering flight in Malifaux.

[Wyrrn]

Sure. If it's an aggressive player, use their mobility against them by luring them into a location where you can surround them (and be sure to concentrate attacks on tough models like the nephs). If your opponent is more patient with his flyers, then do your best to take some models with decent ranged attacks in your crew, and position yourself in places where you can concentrate fire, preferably with cross-fire (but be sure to have models supporting one another or else they'll just fly out of the way and take you down one by one). And remember: flying and floating provide better mobility, but each model still has a limit to the distance they can move. Position yourself accordingly, especially being cautious with beatsticks like Nephilim. If you need some ranged help, consider hiring a merc or two like the convict gunslinger or Hans.

Are these tactics foolproof? No way. Can they work? Yes, but it helps if you have a feel for your opponent's style of play and what models and tactics they will likely use.

[Berman]

It never says in the book that flying and floating models don't take disengaging strikes either. So not saying they don't take them just that they ignore movement penalties to means means they get disengaged strikes for trying to move by them.