General Leviticus Strategies

[notmikehill]

Hey guys, I've played against Levi for the last 6 weeks now and have NOT won a single game! I'm banging my head against a wall with this one. The list is ever changing but the primary factors are the same: Cast Unnatural Wasting twice with high control cards, then uses Entropic Transformation on the guys who were hit! I can't really think as using a primarily Neverborn force how to counter this. Granted, to take Levi out would be best, and try to pull him away from his Waifs, but that's been tried before and seeing as how I'm new to facing this master any rules or errata items that stick out while playing him would definitely come in handy.

Edited July 31, 2010 by notmikehill

[shekbo]

Ok, so the key with Leveticus is: If you can't make a reasonable strike at the waifs this turn, at least keep Leveticus from being too devastating. The best way to do this is to keep him away from your models.

Also, there's no way Leveticus should be able to cast 3 spells in a turn. He's SUMMONED every turn, and a summoned model gains slow. So he should be able to cast 2 spells, and walk with necromantic sacrifice. Also, since he has to discard his entire hand at the beginning of the turn, he shouldn't have more high cards than you. You should always have more. Use them for defenses, especially against unnatural wasting.

You're also going to probably have many more soulstones. You can use this to your advantage with Lily, sending her in with the knowledge that he may have a high card, but you've got a high card plus a soulstone to defend.

Also, speaking of lily, can you get her within 12" of a waif? If so, swap em with a little monster you've got within melee range of you, and cut its head off. Then if there's another waif, and it'll be nearby, becasue he has to resummon them within 6" of himself every turn, you can kill it with whatever you swapped in there.

For neverborn, I'd be most tempted to try Lilith, she is by far the nastiest kill Levi master out there. Zoraida would be equally effective, using your Voodoo dolls to lock on to the waif or waifs and stabbing the hell out of them. Keeping pressure on the waifs is the best way to end Leveticus.

Pandora will have more trouble, however. I'd try one of the other two.

[notmikehill]

My friend, you have just blown my mind! The player I was facing had not used him as a summoned model when he activated the turn after he would re summon himself to the board. That being a key to how I was killed most of the time anyway, I think the next game will be a little easier handle. Thanks!

[Ropetus]

He's SUMMONED every turn, and a summoned model gains slow.

Wrong!

Summoned models are Slow if they activate on the same turn they are summoned. Leveticus is summoned during the Closing Phase and the turn ends immediately after. He therefore never activates on the same turn he is summoned and does not suffer Slow.

It's all in the wording of being summoned and has been stated on this forum many times.

-Ropetus

[karn987]

Actually I would say that Pandora is the best to go against Levy. Levy focus's on single model targeting. He is the strongest model 1v1, but he doesn't do large number of models well. He also generally has no blasts so Pandora's Martyr with Sorrows can keep her pretty safe. At the same time, nothing he has has a particularly high Wp so they will have issues targeting her and winning in her spell duels etc. I play both Pandora and Levy, and I'd never want to have to play Levy vs Pandora. It would be very hard for Levy. If he can get through all her effects and duels then he can nail her and her crew, but he's gotta do just that, get through it all.

Sure you have to get the Waifs the same time you get him. But you can always deal with them later and just put him down at the start of a turn with Pandora. Levy's biggest issue is if he dies at the start of a turn before he has had a chance to do anything. He's honestly not even that hard to kill, especially for Pandora and her ability to pretty much be any where she wants.

Lilith can have a rough time vs him because his crew does melee very very well. Also they aren't that hard to kill for him or his crew. Pretty much just focus fire and they die. But they are very good at ganking the Waifs because of their speed.

Vs Levy my main advice is ignore the Waifs unless you are in a good spot to go after them. If you single mindedly follow them around you will lose, period. You need to target his crew first and then him. Watch his Wds, most of his abilities need to damage him so when he gets low on wds, he's in a bad way. The best thing you can do to him is leave him at 2 wds left at the end of the turn so during the close phase he goes to 1 wd left and he is basically screwed next turn!

But 100% focus on his crew first because Levy will keep coming back unless you get his waif and a good Levy player will not let you get his waif. He will use it to bait you over and over again and get you killed as you try to go after it. Also he can really really easily make a new one. So honestly, it is a better idea to nail his crew first. He can only do some much on his own. Just 100% make sure you keep your master away from him. As I said, he is hands down the strongest single target model in the game. He WILL kill your master if your not careful. Their is no if, he simply will kill you. He will half your wds +1, half your wds +1, then kill you with his no resist spell. Even if you have 12 wds (1st spell: 12 -7 = 5 2nd spell 5-3 = 2. 2wds left puts you in the realm for his insta kill spell).

[karn987]

Wrong!

Summoned models are Slow if they activate on the same turn they are summoned. Leveticus is summoned during the Closing Phase and the turn ends immediately after. He therefore never activates on the same turn he is summoned and does not suffer Slow.

It's all in the wording of being summoned and has been stated on this forum many times.

-Ropetus

Probably shouldn't be so harsh Rope, people can miss things. There is a lot of information in the book and on the forums after all.

Yeah its a little hidden thing in summon about this one, its really easy to miss. Plus with all the threads on the forums, its really easy to miss one. But don't sweat it Shekbo, everyone makes mistkaes. =D

[Lucidicide]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12091

To assist

[Berman]

Something to keep in mind.

Levi's spells do a lot of damage to him. Even if you can only hit him for 4-5 damage early on in the round (before he activates). Doing so will hamper how large his retaliation is. If he dies from casting his first or second spell his turn is over.

Second, most Levi players, especially those that have been winning a lot and not really been challenged becouse of it, are REALLY squimish about the waifs being targetted. Pop one wait and threaten another and suddenly Levi will be raining himself in. Especially if you do the damge early.

Third. Levi's hand is dependent largly on Alice. She dosn't come back and can't be healed. If you take her out early in the game, he spends the rest of the game with a far far worse hand.

Desolation engines are mean but their def isn't great. SPA's are horrible. Their insignificant have 3 Wd, and have an awful attack. SPA/Desolation engine Wp is low Waif and levi have pretty high Wp. Alice is median.

Spend those soul stones to win innitiative when it counts. If you have Levi and his band bunched having just died an your close by with a Mature nefphlim. Win initiative, charge a waif and kill it, melee expert the other one. Now Levi will feel REAL vulnerable. And he hasn't even activated yet.

If he has any objective akin to Reconnoiter, or treasure hunt. He lacks Non-insignificant models and his force is really based around one clump. So seperating is really rough for him. Prevent him from his objective and other wise ignore/evade him.

[Csonti]

Wrong!

Summoned models are Slow if they activate on the same turn they are summoned. Leveticus is summoned during the Closing Phase and the turn ends immediately after. He therefore never activates on the same turn he is summoned and does not suffer Slow.

It's all in the wording of being summoned and has been stated on this forum many times.

-Ropetus

Wrong!

This was discussed on this forum many times but with a different result you mentioned.

Since that time a new errata appeared but was officially canceled.

So as far as I can understand the situation WS previous ruling is the way to play Levi right now.

PS: I had assumed the same as you did Ropetus about the issue, but playing according to the rules (or the intent of the rules) is not about how we assume things, right?

Edited August 1, 2010 by Csonti

[Ropetus]

So as far as I can understand the situation WS previous ruling is the way to play Levi right now.

Ah, its' a new rule in the new book. What a shame. He didn't need the cuddle.

In the old book, models do not receive Slow for being summoned. They receive Slow for activating the same turn they are summoned. There is a world's difference there.

Compared to other summoned models Leve is actually at a disadvantage: they only suffer Slow but Leve misses a whole activation the turn he is summoned. No need to be so harsh on him ;P.

-Ropetus

Edited August 1, 2010 by Ropetus

[notmikehill]

So then, how is he played? Summoned states the turn he is summoned he has slow, which would be the end of the closing phase (Let's say example turn 3) and on turn 4 he would activate as business as usual I guess? Unless I'm missing something.

[Csonti]

Aye, which is play by the book. There it is stated that models are Slow if activated the same turn as summoned, which Leve never does.

So again: I share the same logic as you do, but WS last official ruleing about the issue says otherwise. And since he has a badge and we have not...

[Lucidicide]

So again: I share the same logic as you do, but WS last official ruleing about the issue says otherwise. And since he has a badge and we have not...

But you're only posting that one WS response in isolation. Later in that thread he went on to say this was being changed in the errata.

So we basically know that WS said it worked one way, but made it clear it was changing so it would no longer work that way. Then we got the errata that showed the change, but then that errata was removed.

So I would argue that the last ruling on it is that the Wyrd folks aren't quite sure what to do with it. I think there's a legitimate claim to play it either way, and I think the claim that he is not Slow is even stronger for two reasons

1. The rules about summoning limit the duration of Slow, specificity is better than the general Slow, and therefore the Slow should be limited. That's a direct and logical reading of the rules.
   
2. The errata, even though taken down, was going to make Leveticus not be Slow. Coupled with what Tenebrae has pointed out that it seems that the whole reason for him coming back in Closing as opposed to start was to take advantage of the summoning rules... I think the intent that Leveticus is not Slow is pretty clear (errata in particular pointing this out, even though now recalled probably for a better wording)
   

Although we do have a rules marshal weighing in on the answer, we later have him talking about changing that so it was no longer the case.

If you want to go with the last (standing) official ruling, Leveticus is Slow. If you go by what the rules say AND by what the errata implied for intention, he is not.

Thus, either point is fully justifiably by what rules marshals and Wyrd people have said.

[Iamwyrd]

Levi as of now is played exactly as he was when he first came out. He is summoned, gains slow, but it goes away because it only lasts until next turn, and he is summoned before the turn was over. I was in the debate on that forum and TBK said he is played like normal until after Gen con.

My personal experience to kill Leveticus. BAD JUJU. Summon him 7 inches away from the either Leveticus or summoned hollow waif, walk in between Leveticus but place juju in between Levi and waif. Then use landslide. Landslide is 3 dmg. That's how I deal with Levi. Then all you have to do is keep stuff away from Levi so he doesn't summon another waif.:damnmate:

Edited August 1, 2010 by Iamwyrd

[karn987]

But you're only posting that one WS response in isolation. Later in that thread he went on to say this was being changed in the errata.

So we basically know that WS said it worked one way, but made it clear it was changing so it would no longer work that way. Then we got the errata that showed the change, but then that errata was removed.

So I would argue that the last ruling on it is that the Wyrd folks aren't quite sure what to do with it. I think there's a legitimate claim to play it either way, and I think the claim that he is not Slow is even stronger for two reasons

1. The rules about summoning limit the duration of Slow, specificity is better than the general Slow, and therefore the Slow should be limited. That's a direct and logical reading of the rules.
   
2. The errata, even though taken down, was going to make Leveticus not be Slow. Coupled with what Tenebrae has pointed out that it seems that the whole reason for him coming back in Closing as opposed to start was to take advantage of the summoning rules... I think the intent that Leveticus is not Slow is pretty clear (errata in particular pointing this out, even though now recalled probably for a better wording)
   

Although we do have a rules marshal weighing in on the answer, we later have him talking about changing that so it was no longer the case.

If you want to go with the last (standing) official ruling, Leveticus is Slow. If you go by what the rules say AND by what the errata implied for intention, he is not.

Thus, either point is fully justifiably by what rules marshals and Wyrd people have said.

+1. Basically untill its in the offical Errata post or the new book is in our hands with a change in it, its iffy. Its not even 100% official I would say untill it makes the errata post or some place where it is easily reachable and 100% official. They retracted another change on levy with his waifs before and there is just as good a chance this will be retracted because it seariously hurts his play style. Either way, I wont be using it till its in a errata/faq or a book. I can't really as my LGS to play based on a forum post sadly ><

[Csonti]

Thus, either point is fully justifiably by what rules marshals and Wyrd people have said.

I can see the point of your reasoning but I'll play the devil's advocate here and make same points about why Levy SHOULD be played as Slow.

- The last errata with the Place rules was very quickly killed. Maybe not just for make it more clear.

- WS noted that the intent is to play him Slow and the wording of Summoning will change to make it clear.

- I'm not a librarian but as far as I can recall almost all Masters has 3 AP's to spend. Melee/Casting Experts, Fast or through other special skills. If Levy wouldn't be penalized by Slow he would have 4 AP's to spend every turn. Slow rule makes him just in line with the rest.

- Being summoned comes with Slow in case the model is activated in that turn. Ropetus mentioned that Levy would be penalized in view of other summoned models to get Slow in the next turn since he can not activate in the turn he was summoned. Actually, the opposite is true: Leveticus already had an activation in the turn he is summoned back. So it's logical to "pay the price" next activation for being back in play. I see it as a shock effect on Levy after crossing the gate of death.

And stuff...

[Lucidicide]

I can see the point of your reasoning but I'll play the devil's advocate here and make same points about why Levy SHOULD be played as Slow.

Sounds good to me

- The last errata with the Place rules was very quickly killed. Maybe not just for make it more clear.

It's true, this is a possibility. But it would seem this was to replace Replace. We can't know, though, so you're right: We can't use the errata to necessarily justify anything since it was removed.

- WS noted that the intent is to play him Slow and the wording of Summoning will change to make it clear.

I don't agree with you on this point. WS posted the change to Eternally Shackled which clearly made him not Slow. While you're probably right that the wording of Summoning will be changed to remove the ambiguity, I also am strongly of the belief that Leveticus will change in such a way that he won't be Summoned. So, as you said in your first point, I don't think that we can rule either way based on this.

- I'm not a librarian but as far as I can recall almost all Masters has 3 AP's to spend. Melee/Casting Experts, Fast or through other special skills. If Levy wouldn't be penalized by Slow he would have 4 AP's to spend every turn. Slow rule makes him just in line with the rest.

We have seen that Colette is an exception to this, able to give herself Reactivate as a (0). Now I'll grant you, it actually takes two activations, but it is still 4AP in one turn, and what's more it's general AP, which is huge (and still leaves her with a (0) on her second activation). The Dreamer is another case of a Master that has more AP. If you switch between the Dreamer and LCB in a turn, you have 3 general AP, but if I recall the Dreamer is a Casting Expert, and LCB is a Melee Expert, and they can both use (0) actions making them have an absurd about of AP without anyone getting to go in between. In summary, keeping Leveticus in line doesn't work since there is no line.

- Being summoned comes with Slow in case the model is activated in that turn. Ropetus mentioned that Levy would be penalized in view of other summoned models to get Slow in the next turn since he can not activate in the turn he was summoned. Actually, the opposite is true: Leveticus already had an activation in the turn he is summoned back. So it's logical to "pay the price" next activation for being back in play. I see it as a shock effect on Levy after crossing the gate of death.

If they ruled that he was Slow the next time around, it would require no justification on anyone's part. I think all Leveticus players can truly see it either way in terms of reasoning and balance. Depending how they end up wording it, it can be logical either way. I don't know of anything else that is summoned outside of the Activation Phase, so they have to activate (even if they just pass). Leveticus cannot activate, so he's an exception to so many rules it's hard to make a ruling on it.

--

You play a good devil's advocate. I'm on your side. But I'm also not.

[notmikehill]

Good lord what have I started lol.

[Iamwyrd]

I usually happens when talking about Levi. But I would definately try the juju tactic. I've used it plenty of time.

[Csonti]

Good lord what have I started lol.

Nah, that's all right, keeps our brain fit and working.

[shekbo]

Wait, in what way? He gets summoned back right in the closing phase... How does he lose an activation?

I know I was right about the slow thing, I remember Sketch's post, but please tell me how he could possibly lose a whole activation.

The way I play it is:

Step one: Discard all cards left in hand and draw new hand.

Step two: Summon Leveticus to an empty waif.

Step three: Sacrifice empty waifs

Step four: Summon Empty Waifs to Leveticus.

Then the next turn begins, and they've all got slow, which let me remind you still allows Leveticus to take down any model with 8 health or less that's 13" or less away, fairly easily. If they've got 6 health or less they're practically a pushover, and he can get them from 15". I've been playing with the slow, and he's still a powerhouse. without it, god.

[Lucidicide]

I've been playing with the slow, and he's still a powerhouse. without it, god.

I shall take it upon myself to reply to your post even though you were talking to god

I believe the idea is that he might not be Slow, but he probably also won't have the 6" summoning 'movement.' Therefore he might gain more actions but actually end up farther away for it, which might be a problem in its own right. This might make people play Leveticus and the Waifs differently, thus offsetting the potential gain of no longer being Slow.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Nutcase168]

As I am the Leveticus player in question here, I'll chime in.

We haven't been playing him as slow, and I see the merits of both side of slow vs not for Levi. Most masters have 4 actions (expert/fast/2 (0) actions) plus 2 AP. Levi as not slow has (0), expert, 2 AP, plus necromantic instability which causes 2 damage. So he does have one more point, but 2 of his actions are dedicated to moving and casting. And unlike most masters, he takes damage potentially from his zero and casting actions.

Really what bothers Mike so much is unnatural wasting taking his high wound models down so low and then me turning them into a waif with no resist. Lilith was recently turned into a waif this way and her high defense was sad.

Bringing in Juju and forcing me to deal with him with Levi is a great option. Then I'm not pouring those nasty spells into your other models. Also taking out Alyce is key as I draw 2 less cards a turn then (casting with Levi usually nets me 1-2.)

My waif as tough to kill as then are typically 8-9" back from Levi in the middle of my crew.

But Maybe I'll play Ramos until the new book comes out this month to see what the errata is.

[Berman]

Wow a great use of bad juju. Especially since you can hold off until you have something else ready to pounce in and finish levi off, like a mature nephlim with his flying charge.

Keep in mind Levi's big hurt spell is a ranged spell. So use cover. (Be within 1" of a terrain element and have your base even partially blocked by it.) That gives Levi a on his cast and since that spell needs both suits he needs to flip a fairly decent :tomes or :crows. This means no cheating it up so much more likely to fail the cast or at least be able to resist.

[notmikehill]

Yeah it is painful. I had no idea this thread would get so huge, sorry Nutcase I just wanted to think of a good counter lol