About the slaughter encounter

[divrg]

LAst time i played i got the encounter Assasination and my opponent got slaughter.

It didnt seem balanced to me. It seems to me that slaughter is hard to achive when you opponent knows what you are after.

I mean you really have to kill his entire army. Thats pretty hard.

Any views on this one?

[gunpowder saint]

Balance is not the issue here, the crew is. If I flipped Slaughter with Sonnia, I'd immediately Drop Sameal Hopkins from the usually line up and throw in the peace keeper. Maybe even replace a Witchling with a Death Marshal to round it out a bit.

Schemes also help alot, announce the Raid! now all you have to do is have more units then your opponent, and when slaughter is your only concern it's pretty easy, and finally announce Hold Out, giving your opponent another thing to worry about, if he doesn't have someone within your deployment zone by the end of the game you reel in 2 more points. by having this situation proposed to the enemy regardless of what his strategy is he'll have to make alot of hard choices.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a Noob

[Nutcase168]

Never really been an issue for me. You should pick your crew after your scheme is flipped. Then you pick your crew to handle that.

Last time I played I got assassinate and the last model my opponent had on the table was his master before she thankfully died to a caustic aura flip.

[divrg]

Well chosing the crew after the encounter makes sense to me.

Thx for the advice.

[Justin]

My group usually reflips when someone gets slaughter.

[Natty]

Slaughter is by far the worst one to get. It isn't even close to fair compared to the rest.

You just talked about picking your crew to beat slaughter; well they can pick their crew to never let you slaughter them. Also, most tournaments you can't change up your crews anyway.

Some people complain about assassinate, but I think that one is fine because if they leave their master out of harms way then that takes their best model out of the action. Leaving your 3 point dude in the back to sit in the corner and survive slaughter is no big deal.

[Natty]

Also, this is the rules discussion forum, for when you have questions on rules calls and how the game works, not if part of it is unfair and isn't well liked (mo matter how valid your point may be; and it is).

[icemantis99]

Slaughter is really hard in multiplayer games, because if RAW, then you have to kill 2 or more crews! My group just plays that you only have to have one crew wiped out, whether you did it or not, to get the points.

It's difficult, but no more than any other scheme.

[Ropetus]

Slaughter is really hard in multiplayer games, because if RAW, then you have to kill 2 or more crews! My group just plays that you only have to have one crew wiped out, whether you did it or not, to get the points.

It's difficult, but no more than any other scheme.

Uh, Slaughter is an insanely tough Strategy. Just compare it to Assassinate (which many already find a very hard Strategy compared to the rest). With Slaughter, you have to succeed in Assassinate AND in addition kill their entire Crew as well. Good luck if you're facing an evasive Crew such as Lilith, Marcus or Gremlins. Good luck catching all the little speedy bastards before the game ends.

Multiplayer games should be playd so that your Strategy targets only one crew, same to your Schemes. We have played this in a fashion that your Strategy targets the Crew to your left while your Schemes target the Crew to your right.

We have also removed those dull objectives. Slaughter because it's Assassinate++ and far too easy to spoil, as Natty pointed out. And Bodyguard because Assassinate already exists for the same thing. Also, everyone will pick it every time anyway so this way we get more picks for those actually interesting Schemes (we find it extremely dull if its possible to win the game simply by turtling your crew in an impenetrable defense and ignoring your opponents).

-Ropetus

[icemantis99]

I do think it needs fixing, I just personally haven't found it ridiculous. I didn't notice the Assassinate thing, though. That is kinda sad.

My friend I play with the most does pick Bodyguard on a Shamus crew everytime, it gets... repetitive. But Arcanists do have Sabotage, which our group has had to limit to one per game per crew to slow it down.

Overall, I think a lot of the objectives need fixing.

[Ropetus]

But Arcanists do have Sabotage, which our group has had to limit to one per game per crew to slow it down.

Yes, Sabotage is too easy if you can target any terrain feature and your opponent doesn't have any chance to guess which tree they have to defend. It becomes manageable if you limit the amount of terrain pieces it can target to 2 or 3 central features (such as buildings) on your opponent's side. After all, it makes no sense if you can claim 2 VP by sabotaging a random bush which just happens to be there ;P.

Besides, most Arcanists are not fast enough to claim this Scheme on surprise, except Marcus who really needs the help anyway.

-Ropetus

[icemantis99]

Yeah, we've done that too. If we're playing at my place (which we usually do, I have the most stuff, ha ha) I don't have any small terrain ready yet, just a few big buildings, which makes it a lot easier to defend. Still really, really good though, even at a limit of 1, it's almost a auto-include. Only time I have a issue with it is a Ramos spider list, because it's hard to drop 9 SS for the 2 turns needed to get there, sabotage, and come back.

[Anatoli]

Would it not make more sense to get 2VP for killing 50%, maybe 1VP for killing the master and full 4VP for killing the entire crew (not very likely). Divrg came up with this yesterday and I thought it sounded a lot better than picking crew AFTER a mission flip, which to me sounds like a cheesy thing to do since you then get the opportunity to tailor the crew around 1 mission.

But yeah slaughter is dull and unbalanced. I would also like to have a couple more schemes that are open for all factions, and make the schemes a little less "VP taken for granted". I mean if you pick Hold out and get corner deployment it is 1VP right there.

The scheme "Eye for an Eye" doesn't make any sense, if you win over your enemy you can't complete this scheme unless you let him kill enough of your own models. What purpose does it serve? Would it not be more reasonable to make this scheme "Kill at least 1 enemy model for each model of your own killed by the enemy" ?

[Natty]

I think slaughter would be fair if it didn't count the master at all. Something like 2 points if they only have 1 (or 2?) significant minion on the table and 4 if they have no significant minions. That way they would have to keep more than 1 guy out of harms way and out of the action to stop you (much like assassinate in which they need to keep their master out of harms way, taking that powerful model out of the action).

Currently slaughter is just about keeping a terror tot or a goblin or something way in the back. At least if they changed it to something like I suggested they would have to keep multiple models in the back, losing more of their crew's fighting ability if they wanted to turtle.

Also, seriously, killing the master AND the crew is silly. I play Pandora. Unless you are Lady J or Perdita, it will take everything you have to take Pandora off the table. You can't stop to kill my crew as well.

[theHman]

Don't you guys bring guns to a fight?

People who try to hide guys in the corner quickly find themselves, well cornered. And usually by something with much bigger and nastier guns.

I don't mind slaughter at all and I play Ramos.

It's all about adapting your in-game strategy and tactics with your crew to accomplish your missions and schemes.

[Anatoli]

Resurrectionists are very close combat oriented, part of why I picked the faction since I always play ranged characters/armies in other games and wanted a change.

But maybe we play with too much terrain?

[Justin]

Don't you guys bring guns to a fight?

People who try to hide guys in the corner quickly find themselves, well cornered. And usually by something with much bigger and nastier guns.

I don't mind slaughter at all and I play Ramos.

It's all about adapting your in-game strategy and tactics with your crew to accomplish your missions and schemes.

If you can wipe out your opponent's entire crew, you can accomplish any strategy in the game (at least to some degree) while denying your opponent his.

There is nothing to adapt here. If you can build something to reliably wipe your opponent, you're going to win. I don't care what game you're playing. That's the list you should take every time.

[theHman]

I believe that the Resurrectionists probably have the if not one of the easiest times accomplishing Slaughter because of the lure spell.

That is one nasty spell and has brought about the death of many of my guys.

[ProdigalPunk]

I think slaughter would be fair if it didn't count the master at all. Something like 2 points if they only have 1 (or 2?) significant minion on the table and 4 if they have no significant minions. That way they would have to keep more than 1 guy out of harms way and out of the action to stop you (much like assassinate in which they need to keep their master out of harms way, taking that powerful model out of the action).

Currently slaughter is just about keeping a terror tot or a goblin or something way in the back. At least if they changed it to something like I suggested they would have to keep multiple models in the back, losing more of their crew's fighting ability if they wanted to turtle.

Also, seriously, killing the master AND the crew is silly. I play Pandora. Unless you are Lady J or Perdita, it will take everything you have to take Pandora off the table. You can't stop to kill my crew as well.

And this is why I think Slaughter is fairly balanced. Killing Pandora's crew is usually not impossible, and you tend to need to widdle it down to get ot her anyway. So if you pull Slaughter, kill them first, get 2 points, maybe kill her for 2 more. If that was assassinate then you would mostly have to take them out then her for your points. Some masters do really well in staying out of harms way. Nioc, Pandora, Perdida, Levi, and Tina can all hide or evade fairly well and still be rather effective, killing their crews can sometimes be way easier then killing them (although killing a nico crew is tough too). Some masters need to be more frontline, McM, Lillith, the Viks, all are more likely to need to put themselves in harms way. I think that is the idea of chosing after the strats are declaired, it is just as much list making as playing in that respect.

[Hookers]

Would it not make more sense to get 2VP for killing 50%, maybe 1VP for killing the master and full 4VP for killing the entire crew (not very likely). Divrg came up with this yesterday and I thought it sounded a lot better than picking crew AFTER a mission flip, which to me sounds like a cheesy thing to do since you then get the opportunity to tailor the crew around 1 mission.

whoa whoa whoa, you pick your crew after your mission flip regardless. no matter what strategy you get you should tailor a crew around it, and your opponent does the same. it makes sure every model has a purpose and will get used at some point, and quite frankly is what makes malifaux malifaux

awhile ago i brought this up as i had similar views as everyone else, and lalo and i had a discussion about whiping your opponent = autowin, etc. however with more experience with the game my opinion has changed. while not perfectly balanced necessarily the strategies are different enough to keep it interesting. the main thing to focus on between assassinate and slaughter is assassinate makes you keep your own master alive while slaughter does not care if your own models are alive or not. its more of an all or nothing strategy where you can sacrifice your own models as long as you kill the opponents. to be successful in assassinate you have to protect yours as well. also each game is also relative to the strategy that your opponent has as well. since that is common knowledge, you will be playing differently based on what they have to do too. if they have claim jump or treasure hunt it will be more difficult to deny you your strategy by simply placing a low cost model in the corner. with limited resources every SS makes a difference and if you are fighting with your full crew and they are not they will be at a disadvantage.

also i find an eye for an eye useful because it can help you out if you aren't doing as well as you had hoped and can turn a loss into a draw or draw into a win even.

[Natty]

And this is why I think Slaughter is fairly balanced.

So if you pull Slaughter, kill them first, get 2 points, maybe kill her for 2 more.

That's not really the point most of us were trying to make. You can't just "kill them first, get 2 points" because all you need to do is keep something like a terror tot behind a tree in your deployment zone. Then it doesn't even matter if you kill everything else on the table, you get 0 points.

You have to kill everything in the way including the whole crew and master, and still have enough time left over to get to the deployment zone and kill the tot. Taking 3 points out of your army and hiding it to completely foil the enemy when the rest of your crew runs up to complete objectives is no big worry.

It is just too easy to stop your opponent from completing slaughter. Every crew has something it is really good at but no crew is really good at slaughter. Slow crews happen to be slightly worse at slaughter than fast crews, but every crew is bad at completing slaughter.

-----------------------

I fought a Nicodem who got the slaughter encounter last weekend. I just ran up and stood in melee with his stuff the whole game. I didn't even need to win my fights. I didn't even really try to win my fights except for killing his vultures (because they move fast). I just stood in melee range in defensive stance to slow him down. The game ended and sure, he had maybe 3 times as many models out as me, but he was so far away from the stuff I hid in my deployment zone that it didn't matter. He had no chance at all. That game was over the second he flipped slaughter.

[Hookers]

no offense to your opponent but he let you do that. you won because you had a valid tactic for denying him his strategy and it worked, not because he flipped that strategy. you could've done the same thing for treasure hunt, clump around his models and not let him leave and go back to the deployment zone. its the same thing, he shouldn't have let himself get clumped up in that case, though it might have appeared that it was beneficial to him at the time. he fell for your trap, and next time he probably won't.

necro punks, canine remains, etc. are all cheap fast ways to go kill whatever is hiding in the corner. a belle with lure can make sure it can't hide for long. as easy and cheap as it is to hide something in the corner it can be just as easy and cheap to kill it.

you guys are making it seem as though no one has ever completed slaughter. what you do matters. if you hadn't have stalled 100% of his models like that he might've won. i'd say you did a good job then.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Hookers

[Ropetus]

In this game you don't just "kill the entire enemy crew". Your opponent still controls their own models and if they have a Strategy like Reconnoiter he has no reason to fight you at all. Therefore they will do their best to avoid every fight they can. This is especially effective if their Crew is much faster than the Crew which drew Slaughter (like Lilith or Marcus vs. any Ressers).

One Terror Tot in your deployment zone can be countered with those units. However, take say three Tots and Sprint them in different corners of the table. Good luck catching all of them before the game ends with Pandora intercepting enemies (and she's great at that). Actually, if your opponent gets Slaughter, your Master is expendable since the 2 VP condition is having only enemy Master alive. You score 0 VP if they sacrifice their Master to waste enough of your activations so you run out of time to kill all their Minions.

It is easy to point out Slaughter is much harder than the others:

Assassinate: Kill enemy Master.

Slaughter: Kill enemy Master + all enemy Minions.

Those two are not in the same scope at all.

-Ropetus

[Hookers]

Assassinate: Kill enemy Master. AND KEEP YOURS ALIVE

Slaughter: Kill enemy Master + all enemy Minions.

Those two are not in the same scope at all.

-Ropetus

i used to think that too until i focused on the fact that slaughter doesn't require you to keep any of your models alive

[karn987]

i used to think that too until i focused on the fact that slaughter doesn't require you to keep any of your models alive

Which gives Slaughter some additional ease in certain respects over assassinate. Since you don't have to worry so much about keeping yours alive.

Almost any crew can pull off slaughter and it wont actually be that hard because most people don't play cheesy. They will go all in against you and wont do annoying things like hanging one guy back all game. Most people play the game, and that is play to have fun and make it a fun experience for yourself and your opponent. People who just play to win soon find themselves alienated from the rest. It's not a good thing, its something I hate see happen to people and try to stop. But if the person won't play to have fun, and only see's winning as the goal, then there isn't much hope for them. *shrugs*

But so what if they are not 100% equal, it's all luck of the cards to what you get any way ;D

Edited July 23, 2010 by karn987