Too many tots?

[Extinction Angel]

How many is too many? How few are too few?

I've been running my Lilith crew recently without any terror tots. My 35SS crew looks like:

2x Young

1x Mature

1x Teddy/Hooded Rider/2nd Mature*

1x Cherub

*2/3/1x Extra SS for Lilith

It offers me some interesting tactical choices, but it leaves me with fewer models so activations have to be timed perfectly. Thus, I find myself sometimes wanting a tot around if for nothing else but to double pass with.

So, has anyone found a particular number that works great for tots? Has anyone tried running something like, 11 tots in a 35SS game? I don't see that being particularly effective other than being able to bog down your oponent in DF6 gnats.

[Natty]

I do play Lilith at all, but my input in this is to remember that it is actually harder to grow a tot than to mature a young Nephilim. Grow takes a specific suit to use and mature just takes a high card.

So 11 tots would be just bad because if you never drew that suit, you might just end up with a lot of useless blood counters. I don't think I'd ever consider playing Lilith without at least 1, and preferably 2, young Nephilim.

[Extinction Angel]

Yes, exactly. If playing 11 tots you would certainly not be expecting to grow many. Which is pretty lame, considering it's one of the advantages in playing Lilith.

I think the main reason to have so many models like that is to control the activation sequence of the game and gain some leverage in positioning while swarming the oposing crew.

The average number of models a crew fields at 35 SS would dictate how many you need to take in order to gaurantee you will have models activating after your oponent is out of models to activate.

That is of course, until the tots start dieing, which they are experts at.

I think the average would be closer to 7/8 for 35SS scraps.

So that would see us with a list closer to 2x Young, 7x Tots. I'd rather replace one of the tots with the Cherub so we can get some good Forest/Earthquake shenanigans going on.

That still maintains our model count and garners us an extra SS for lilith or, we could take that extra SS and upgrade a tot to something different as well. We have 6 SS free at this point. That's a possible 3rd Young, maybe a Waldgiest, leaving us with 5 tots and not a lot of extra SS for Lilith, who loves her some SS.

I think I might proxy some tots and give 5 a go, just to see how well they can tie up an oposing crew. I don't expect to have astounding success, but I imagine it would be both fun and educational.

Just imagine the din of all those tots carrying on and Lilith yelling at them like some psychotic baby sitter. That should be an automatic Terror -> 12 test for the oposing crew.

[Q'iq'el]

Think of Tots in terms of options they give you. They are not great fighters, they are very good in other areas.

1. A Tot is REALLY fast. IF you have some low masks that would be useless for your other characters, use them to sprint (IIRC you need 5 of :masks or higher.). That makes it a great mini for last turn grabs of terrain features and such - hanging around them is an easy way to betray a hidden scheme, but Tot's speed makes it very hard to guess.

2. A tot is Really small but still significant. A ht1 30mm model can hide in many places. The opponent will have to go out of the way to hunt them all down as they can very easily deny him victory points or claim victory points for you.

3. If he kills your Tot and your crew is close enough, they get a free move. If your opponent forgets about it, you can spring a trap against him. If he knows about it, you can use Tots to limit his options (he often won't shoot or charge a Tot if it means a couple of more powerful models will get to move in range and charge him next.

While Tots are not be all end all of a Lilith crew, I think they are very useful. Almost every game there's something a Tot can do to help and at worst they just provide Young Nephilim replacement.

I'd probably never consider taking more than 4~5 though. I own only 3 and I use all of them in almost every game. I'd rather go 3 Tots and 2 Young than 2 Young and 1 Mature. In the end, Lilith is the killing machine in the crew - Young Nephilim are good enough to support her and Mature can always come later. Nobody can bring what Tots achieve with their size and speed though.

[Ropetus]

A Terror Tot horde can be great depending on the Strategies and Schemes. Imagine this: you have Reconnoiter and your opponent has Slaughter. Just spend all your SS on Tots and use their speed and size to play hide-and-seek with your opponent. No chance they can catch all of them before the game ends. Pick Schemes like Breakthrough and Hold Out and use Lilith as a guard for your deployment zone.

For a general all comers Crew, I think you will definitely need something else as well. The Tots are just not tough enough to win a battle on their own.

-Ropetus

[icemantis99]

Yeah, I've found it's similiar with any "horde" style crew. It's great if you have a enemy who relies on big attacks or big creatures, but bunk against area affecters or faster opponents.

Nothing quite like dropping 10 minis on a guy with a crew of 4, though. The look on their face is just wonderful.

[Q'iq'el]

There are diminishing returns with Tots though. The more you take, the less effective/useable are their special skills (partially because you can't count on enough :masks to sprint them all, partially because a horde of Tots is harder to hide and run with than a single Tot).

[karn987]

I've been playing Lilith for a while and I've found that you need a healthy mix of Young and Tots. The Tot spam really doesn't work well if the enemy has any kind of kill based Scenario or any kind of AE power. The tots simply can not compete with the likes of a master or a potent model.

That said, they are very quick and can quickly cover a lot of ground. So they are good for any of the land grab/movement based scenario and schemes. So if you want to play that way and win that way, sure go ahead. Just realize you can not stand up to an actual fight. They may be a good 3ss model, but they are still a 3ss model and are not up to the task of dealing with a master, or something like the Executioner or Ice Golem.

Personally, I like to bring 2 - 3 terror tots in my lists. It gives me some activation control which is the second biggest use for them. If your opponent isn't also playing a bit of a horde, you can activate your tots and wear down their activations by keeping the rest of your crew hidden. Then when their activations are almost all done, start bringing the Young and Mature and Lilith to the front lines. As you know, not much in the game can take a Mature or Lilith. Let alone both at the same time (which btw you should always be doing, companion the Mature and activate both for a horrendous alpha strike).

Just remember to treat Lilith and her brood as what they are, scalpels. They ARE NOT able to just stick it out in a huge melee in the center of the board. They will die to the other melee powerhouses in the game quicker then you can kill them. Strike hard and fast and then get out of the way if you can. Use lilith's board control spells to shape the table so your models aren't at risk via surpise woods or pushing/teleporting people.

Btw another reason for 2 - 3 tots, her transposition spell. Get that Mature up field really fast when you need it by switching it with a terror tot. Or do it yourself etc. Basically the tots are fodder. If you manage to grow them, go for it. I would say, it's more important to grow your Tots then it is to Mature your Young right away. Unless you lose the Mature to fast, then you want to get another one asap. The big thing about the Mature is, it draws attention and fire. Thats what you want. Let people chase it down while you manuvere the rest of your force into position. Young can still do a good amount of damage and have a better chance against most masters. Of course though, the main idea is to get Lilith into melee when you can. Kill your target, drink it's blood, and get away.

So just from this little blurb, I hope you see Lilith is a lot of board and terrain control as well as misdirection and not just eat your face melee. I would NEVER bring more then 3 tots to a serious game because it does not work unless your focusing 100% on movement based strategy and schemes. They simply can not compete vs the more expensive models in the game and thats fine. Your not meant to swarm them, really your not.